How Do LNers Deal With Givens?

[Zeon Mason]

Present a single piece of credible evidence that places Oswald in the SN at 12:30pm.

I may be one the who 1st  floated that 12:16 BRW leaving earlier time , which was a mistake on my part if I’m going with Arnold Rowlands as a credible witness.

I looked up Arnold Rowland WC testimony and that’s when I found where  he was looking back about every 30 secs after he saw  BRW at 12:15 which means he saw BRW not just one more time at 12:20 but every 30 secs AFTER that until about 12:24 and THEN at 12:25 , he no longer saw BRW.

I generally agree with most of your arguments except the notion the shooter would not have assembled the MC rifle sometime earlier than 12:00 because imo the 7th floor was available ( which is like an attic)

If that’s the case, though the shooter had to have transported the rifle multiple times inside the bag for it to ever have wound  up in the SN. ( unless Bag was moved there after the fact by Fritz team)

So it’s possible after transporting rifle in bag to the SW 6th floor and taking rifle out of  bag such that he was seen by Rowland at 12:15, the shooter after backing away, put the rifle back in the bag, then he had to hide the rifle again (if he is Oswald ) and go back down to 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen
By Carolyn Arnold at 12:17.

However if the shooter is not Oswald then he wouldn’t have to go back down at all. In fact he could have found some spot on the NE corner of the floor where he could have hidden and taken his rifle with him in the bag once more.

This is where it gets into time trouble for the shooter to have arranged the 3 boxes before 12:25 if BRW is still on the floor till 12:24.

And once BRW did leave the floor that late , the shooter must have carried the rifle in the bag one last time to the SN and left it there.

For this hypothetical scenario to be plausible would require  the shooter was wearing gloves as he handled bag ( with he had gotten Oswald’s prints on ) and while the shooter fired the  rifle

[Jack Nessan]

Present a single piece of credible evidence that places Oswald in the SN at 12:30pm.

You're in luck there are two pieces. His rifle and his fingerprints.

[Jack Nessan]

I may be one the who 1st  floated that 12:16 BRW leaving earlier time , which was a mistake on my part if I’m going with Arnold Rowlands as a credible witness.

I looked up Arnold Rowland WC testimony and that’s when I found where  he was looking back about every 30 secs after he saw  BRW at 12:15 which means he saw BRW not just one more time at 12:20 but every 30 secs AFTER that until about 12:24 and THEN at 12:25 , he no longer saw BRW.

I generally agree with most of your arguments except the notion the shooter would not have assembled the MC rifle sometime earlier than 12:00 because imo the 7th floor was available ( which is like an attic)

If that’s the case, though the shooter had to have transported the rifle multiple times inside the bag for it to ever have wound  up in the SN. ( unless Bag was moved there after the fact by Fritz team)

So it’s possible after transporting rifle in bag to the SW 6th floor and taking rifle out of  bag such that he was seen by Rowland at 12:15, the shooter after backing away, put the rifle back in the bag, then he had to hide the rifle again (if he is Oswald ) and go back down to 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen
By Carolyn Arnold at 12:17.

However if the shooter is not Oswald then he wouldn’t have to go back down at all. In fact he could have found some spot on the NE corner of the floor where he could have hidden and taken his rifle with him in the bag once more.

This is where it gets into time trouble for the shooter to have arranged the 3 boxes before 12:25 if BRW is still on the floor till 12:24.

And once BRW did leave the floor that late , the shooter must have carried the rifle in the bag one last time to the SN and left it there.

For this hypothetical scenario to be plausible would require  the shooter was wearing gloves as he handled bag ( with he had gotten Oswald’s prints on ) and while the shooter fired the  rifle

Rowland was a complete clown. By the end of his testimony they were making fun of how ridiculous his answers were.

[Dan O'meara]

I may be one the who 1st  floated that 12:16 BRW leaving earlier time , which was a mistake on my part if I’m going with Arnold Rowlands as a credible witness.

I looked up Arnold Rowland WC testimony and that’s when I found where  he was looking back about every 30 secs after he saw  BRW at 12:15 which means he saw BRW not just one more time at 12:20 but every 30 secs AFTER that until about 12:24 and THEN at 12:25 , he no longer saw BRW.

I generally agree with most of your arguments except the notion the shooter would not have assembled the MC rifle sometime earlier than 12:00 because imo the 7th floor was available ( which is like an attic)

If that’s the case, though the shooter had to have transported the rifle multiple times inside the bag for it to ever have wound  up in the SN. ( unless Bag was moved there after the fact by Fritz team)

So it’s possible after transporting rifle in bag to the SW 6th floor and taking rifle out of  bag such that he was seen by Rowland at 12:15, the shooter after backing away, put the rifle back in the bag, then he had to hide the rifle again (if he is Oswald ) and go back down to 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen
By Carolyn Arnold at 12:17.

However if the shooter is not Oswald then he wouldn’t have to go back down at all. In fact he could have found some spot on the NE corner of the floor where he could have hidden and taken his rifle with him in the bag once more.

This is where it gets into time trouble for the shooter to have arranged the 3 boxes before 12:25 if BRW is still on the floor till 12:24.

And once BRW did leave the floor that late , the shooter must have carried the rifle in the bag one last time to the SN and left it there.

For this hypothetical scenario to be plausible would require  the shooter was wearing gloves as he handled bag ( with he had gotten Oswald’s prints on ) and while the shooter fired the  rifle

Rowland recalls seeing the man with the rifle and the black man in the SN around 12:16pm. He remembers this because just before he saw these men he heard a timestamp on a police motorcycles radio. The detail he gives about the time and Cedar Springs demonstrates how accurate his memory was as he had no way to know that the transcripts of the police transmissions confirm his account:

Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned...the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.

The police transcripts confirm this timing:



Rowland states he looked back to the 6th floor around twice a minute trying to find the man with the rifle to show his wife.
If we stick to the Oswald-Did-It narrative, the evidence, as it stands, paints a picture of Oswald assembling the rifle in the SN (the long bag for carrying the disassembled rifle found in the southeast corner) and, for some unknown reason, making his way over to the west side of the building with the assembled rifle where he is seen by Rowland.
If the rifle was assembled elsewhere there would be no need to carry the long bag over to the southeast corner. Rowland saw the man carrying the rifle so it's not like he felt the need to carry the assembled rifle in the bag.

The main problem with this is BRW. How could Oswald assemble the rifle in the SN and wander around the 6th floor with it without BRW noticing him? And why would Oswald wander over to the west side with the rifle anyway?
Another problem is Rowland's description of the clothes worn by the man with the rifle - "open collared shirt, light-colored shirt". Oswald didn't even own such a garment, let alone wear it on the day of the assassination. Both Ronald Fischer and Robert Edwards also recall the man on the 6th floor wearing an open-neck shirt.
Another problem is the black man in the SN. Rowland scanned the 6th floor quite often looking for the man with the rifle and would have seen the black man every time until he disappeared around 12:25pm.

[John Corbett]

It amuses me how people get their shorts in a bunch trying to nail down precisely who was where in the minutes leading up to the shooting. They ignore the obvious evidence that tells us without question Oswald was in the sniper's nest firing the shots that killed JFK at 12:30. His fingerprints were on the boxes in the sniper's nest. The three shells found at that location were positively matched to Oswald's rifle which was found a short distance away. The only two recovered bullets were also positively matched to that same rifle, which also had Oswald's palm print on the underside of the barrel where it could only have been placed when the rifle was disassembled. Fibers matching the shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested were found on the butt plate of the rifle. There was also a makeshift bag found near the sniper's nest with Oswald's palm and fingerprint on the bottom. The bag contained fibers that matched the blanket Oswald used to store his rifle when he kept it at the Paine's house.

It is mind boggling that someone could look at all that evidence of Oswald's guilt and come to any other conclusion other than Oswald was the assassin. We have people on this forum willing to disregard all that evidence, yet these same people will mindlessly argue about what the cast of characters in front of the TSBD were doing in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, as if that had any bearing on anything of consequence.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[Zeon Mason]

It amuses me how people get their shorts in a bunch trying to nail down precisely who was where in the minutes leading up to the shooting. They ignore the obvious evidence that tells us without question Oswald was in the sniper's nest firing the shots that killed JFK at 12:30. His fingerprints were on the boxes in the sniper's nest. The three shells found at that location were positively matched to Oswald's rifle which was found a short distance away. The only two recovered bullets were also positively matched to that same rifle, which also had Oswald's palm print on the underside of the barrel where it could only have been placed when the rifle was disassembled. Fibers matching the shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested were found on the butt plate of the rifle. There was also a makeshift bag found near the sniper's nest with Oswald's palm and fingerprint on the bottom. The bag contained fibers that matched the blanket Oswald used to store his rifle when he kept it at the Paine's house.

It is mind boggling that someone could look at all that evidence of Oswald's guilt and come to any other conclusion other than Oswald was the assassin. We have people on this forum willing to disregard all that evidence, yet these same people will mindlessly argue about what the cast of characters in front of the TSBD were doing in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, as if that had any bearing on anything of consequence.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Well the problem for me was the very beginning when Fritz started to interrogate Oswald without a proper way to record his statements. His scribbling notes which he then embellishes later are questionable.

So although I see that   this guy Oswald certainly was acting kind of arrogant and smirking seemingly enjoying his publicity, and being a Marxist and a traitor to his USMC oath, thus I believe him fully capable of being the assassin, its the details of how evidence was acquired that are troublesome to me.

I just have reservations that this looney tune Oswald was not afforded his constitutional right to have attorney present before he was interrogated. Then the line up was obviously not fair. And then the  chain of custody is muddy especially for CE. 399.

So as much as I tend towards the simplest solution being probably the best one , in this case there is so much snafu going on that it introduces reasonable doubt for me at least.

This is why my perspective is not hardcore CT but rather one which attempts to objectively verify for myself if the WC got it right. Some things are indisputable such as the MC rifle serial no. traced to a money order that leads to Oswald’s P.O. Box address. Other things however are not so definitive and in fact are of such level of snafu that it’s difficult to accept it was merely due to overlapping agency miscommunication.

[Dan O'meara]

It amuses me how people get their shorts in a bunch trying to nail down precisely who was where in the minutes leading up to the shooting. They ignore the obvious evidence that tells us without question Oswald was in the sniper's nest firing the shots that killed JFK at 12:30. His fingerprints were on the boxes in the sniper's nest. The three shells found at that location were positively matched to Oswald's rifle which was found a short distance away. The only two recovered bullets were also positively matched to that same rifle, which also had Oswald's palm print on the underside of the barrel where it could only have been placed when the rifle was disassembled. Fibers matching the shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested were found on the butt plate of the rifle. There was also a makeshift bag found near the sniper's nest with Oswald's palm and fingerprint on the bottom. The bag contained fibers that matched the blanket Oswald used to store his rifle when he kept it at the Paine's house.

It is mind boggling that someone could look at all that evidence of Oswald's guilt and come to any other conclusion other than Oswald was the assassin. We have people on this forum willing to disregard all that evidence, yet these same people will mindlessly argue about what the cast of characters in front of the TSBD were doing in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, as if that had any bearing on anything of consequence.

Stupid is as stupid does.

You previously posted - "There is ample evidence  that Oswald was in the sniper's nest at 12:30"
You've been asked to provide a single scrap of evidence that places Oswald in the SN at 12:30pm.
Are you going to do that or not?

Let's put the question of Oswald's guilt to one side because this thread is not about Oswald's guilt - it's about the Warren Commission's guilt.
The story should be very simple - a lone nut brings his rifle to work and shoots the President from the 6th floor of the TSBD building. Everyone else was watching the motorcade, unaware of what was taking place.
It's such a simple story and ALL the evidence should point to that. There should be no need to fabricate any testimony or omit any testimony to make this story work. But that's not what we find.
It is a fact the Givens story about returning to the 6th floor is a later addition that had not been mentioned previously, even though Givens was grilled about his movements and his knowledge about Oswald's movements.
It is a fact the testimonies/statements of Williams, Givens, Lovelady and Arce concerning the Elevator Race are omitted from the final report.
It is a fact the Givens story paints a completely different picture than the Elevator Race - Oswald is no longer on the 5th floor, he is on the 6th near the southeast corner. There is no mention of Oswald calling out to the men coming down from the 6th floor or asking for them to send an elevator back up to him. It is now Givens, not Oswald, asking if he wants to come down to the first floor. Rather than looking to get down to the first floor, Oswald is now refusing to come down.
It is a fact that Eddie Piper's testimony puts Oswald on the first floor around 12 noon and it is also a fact this testimony was omitted by the WC.
It is a fact Arnold Rowland's observation of the man with the rifle and the black man in the SN window were omitted from the report.
It is a fact the testimonies/statements of the first responders (Mooney, Hill, Weatherford, McCurley, Haygood and Brewer) that collectively place BRW's lunch remains on top of the back wall of the SN (the barricade of boxes that hide the Sniper's Perch), have been omitted from the WC report.
It is a fact the testimonies of Jarman and Norman, that reveal the true length of time BRW was on the 6th floor, are omitted from the WC report.

All of this testimonial evidence regarding what occurred on the 6th floor leading up to the assassination has been omitted - 14 witnesses.
Not to mention Dougherty's revelation that he had his lunch quickly then returned to the 6th floor to work!

In it's place, the demonstrably provable lie put in the mouth of Charles Givens about returning to the 6th floor.
It is mind-boggling that someone could ignore all of this and simply swallow down the WC's  without question.