How Do LNers Deal With Givens?

[Dan O'meara]

I was trying to offer to the LNs  a possible  rational alternative that explains Dougherty not seeing anything in Oswald’s hands when Oswald entered the back door of TSBD that morning to replace the standard LN “he just was  not paying attention” argument. So I just letting you know I’m not  attacking either you or John Corbett . I’m just trying to have a Socratic dialogue and that means questioning the status quo.

No worries Zeon, you are reacting to a post that wasn't in response to anything you said.
I was just revealing what a spoon fed nobody some of these Warren Commission sycophants can be.
They can't think for themselves. If the Warren Commission didn't say it then they don't know what to think.
The point of this thread is to demonstrate that the Warren Commission created a web of lies and deception regarding Oswald's movements prior to the assassination.
The Givens lie had a twofold effect - it placed Oswald on the 6th floor near the southeast corner and it had Oswald refusing to come down to the first floor.
In reality the Elevator Race incident (as told by four separate witnesses) had Oswald on the 5th floor calling for them to send the elevator back up so he could get down to the first floor. And we know he did return to the first floor because, just before noon, Eddie Piper was talking with him on the first floor.
The problem for the Warren Commission was Bonnie Ray Williams.

[Zeon Mason]

No worries Zeon, you are reacting to a post that wasn't in response to anything you said.
I was just revealing what a spoon fed nobody some of these Warren Commission sycophants can be.
They can't think for themselves. If the Warren Commission didn't say it then they don't know what to think.
The point of this thread is to demonstrate that the Warren Commission created a web of lies and deception regarding Oswald's movements prior to the assassination.
The Givens lie had a twofold effect - it placed Oswald on the 6th floor near the southeast corner and it had Oswald refusing to come down to the first floor.
In reality the Elevator Race incident (as told by four separate witnesses) had Oswald on the 5th floor calling for them to send the elevator back up so he could get down to the first floor. And we know he did return to the first floor because, just before noon, Eddie Piper was talking with him on the first floor.
The problem for the Warren Commission was Bonnie Ray Williams.

It does seem inconsistent that Oswald would shout to send up an elevator and then when one arrives, Oswald elects not to ride down on it with Givens.

I can only speculate that if Oswald is the shooter that he had intended to lock down one ( or both?) elevators on the 6th floor from 11:45 till maybe 12:10 so he could go take a couple of trial runs down all 6 flights of stairs and floor landings checking for obstacles and making sure doors were wedged open.

However , there was no one who saw Oswald doing this practice run nor even saw him on 6th floor including Dougherty who was supposedly on the 5th floor during this time.

You add in Bonnie Ray Williams on the 6th floor from 12:05 till 12:23 and  Carolyn Arnold sighting Oswald at 12:15 in the 2nd floor lunchroom while Arnold Rowland is sighting a black man at the SE window at 12:15 simultaneously with another lighter complected man holding a rifle at the SW window ….. and it’s getting awfully complicated to work out how Oswald goes uo and down the stairs so many times without being seen by anybody else
except Piper on the 1st floor at 12:00.

I tried working out a plausible solution but it requires that Oswald’s original plan was to shoot from the window at 12:15, that he transported the rifle multiple times in the bag ( yet only 2 prints on bag?) that he got spooked seeing BRW at the other SE window, that Oswald hid the rifle in bag again, went all the way down to 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen maybe at 12:17 by Carolyn Arnold , then a few minutes later , Oswald regained his nerve and went back up , took rifle in bag to NW corner , saw BRW still at the SE window. Then Oswald hid somewhere to hide until  BRW finally left 6th floor  at 12:23 using the elevator. Then Oswald has only about 2 minutes to arrange those 3 boxes , placing one on  the window ledge at that particular Angle ( he had to get the box on the window ledge before film started)  And he did all that without being heard by Harold Norman on the 5th floor room right beneath him. (Norman and Jarman were at their windows by 12:23)  And Dougherty neither saw  nor heard ANY of this activity. 

[John Corbett]

I tried working out a plausible solution but it requires that Oswald’s original plan was to shoot from the window at 12:15, that he transported the rifle multiple times in the bag ( yet only 2 prints on bag?) that he got spooked seeing BRW at the other SE window, that Oswald hid the rifle in bag again, went all the way down to 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen maybe at 12:17 by Carolyn Arnold , then a few minutes later , Oswald regained his nerve and went back up , took rifle in bag to NW corner , saw BRW still at the SE window. Then Oswald hid somewhere to hide until  BRW finally left 6th floor  at 12:23 using the elevator. Then Oswald has only about 2 minutes to arrange those 3 boxes , placing one on  the window ledge at that particular Angle ( he had to get the box on the window ledge before film started)  And he did all that without being heard by Harold Norman on the 5th floor room right beneath him. (Norman and Jarman were at their windows by 12:23)  And Dougherty neither saw  nor heard ANY of this activity. 

Why would you believe Arnold made a mental note of what time she saw Oswald? Nothing would have seemed less important at the time. She wasn't sure where or when she had seen Oswald. Why would she have been?

[Martin Weidmann]

Why would you believe Arnold made a mental note of what time she saw Oswald? Nothing would have seemed less important at the time. She wasn't sure where or when she had seen Oswald. Why would she have been?

Which still doesn't rule out the possibility that she did in fact see Oswald.

[Dan O'meara]

It does seem inconsistent that Oswald would shout to send up an elevator and then when one arrives, Oswald elects not to ride down on it with Givens.

"Inconsistent" doesn't really do it justice.
In reality Oswald was on the 5th floor when the elevator race was taking place. He called out to Givens to allow him onto the east elevator (Givens was on the east elevator - Williams, Lovelady and Arce on the west). Givens refused to stop, presumably because the race was under way, so Oswald called out to them to close the gate and send the elevator back up to him. Oswald was trying to get down to the first floor. If Givens would've stopped and let him on, he would have travelled down to the first floor there and then.
Even though the four men ignored Oswald, he still made his way down to the first floor because we have Eddie Piper's testimony placing him down there around 12 noon. Oswald wanted to get down to the first floor so he went down there.

The fabricated account put in Givens' mouth completely reverses this. Instead of refusing him to get on the elevator, Givens now invites Oswald to get on to travel down to the first floor. Instead of wanting to go down to the first floor, Oswald now refuses and wants to stay put. As an added extra, the Givens Fabrication puts Oswald near the southeast corner of the 6th floor, the scene of the shooting. In this invented scenario Oswald now had the time he needed to organise the Sniper's Perch and assemble his rifle.

In reality he never had this time. Bonnie Ray Williams was up on the 6th, probably before 12 noon. The workers broke for lunch around 11:50am. All Bonnie Ray had to do was wash up, collect his lunch, buy a bottle of Dr Pepper and return to the 6th floor. I doubt this took more than five minutes to do.
There is no time for Oswald to make his preparations if he was down on the first floor while Bonnie Ray was on the 6th.

Another 'lie by omission' committed by the WC Sham was Arnold Rowland's observation of a white, slender man carrying a scoped rifle at the southwest end of the 6th floor. This stunning piece of evidence was simply ignored by the WC, as if Rowland had made up this observation and, by some miracle, had guessed there was a white, slender male carrying a scoped rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building.

And the gullible Nutters just swallow down everything they are told to, ignoring the string of obvious lies and manipulations that prop up their spoon-fed beliefs.

[Zeon Mason]

"Inconsistent" doesn't really do it justice.
In reality Oswald was on the 5th floor when the elevator race was taking place. He called out to Givens to allow him onto the east elevator (Givens was on the east elevator - Williams, Lovelady and Arce on the west). Givens refused to stop, presumably because the race was under way, so Oswald called out to them to close the gate and send the elevator back up to him. Oswald was trying to get down to the first floor. If Givens would've stopped and let him on, he would have travelled down to the first floor there and then.
Even though the four men ignored Oswald, he still made his way down to the first floor because we have Eddie Piper's testimony placing him down there around 12 noon. Oswald wanted to get down to the first floor so he went down there.

The fabricated account put in Givens' mouth completely reverses this. Instead of refusing him to get on the elevator, Givens now invites Oswald to get on to travel down to the first floor. Instead of wanting to go down to the first floor, Oswald now refuses and wants to stay put. As an added extra, the Givens Fabrication puts Oswald near the southeast corner of the 6th floor, the scene of the shooting. In this invented scenario Oswald now had the time he needed to organise the Sniper's Perch and assemble his rifle.

In reality he never had this time. Bonnie Ray Williams was up on the 6th, probably before 12 noon. The workers broke for lunch around 11:50am. All Bonnie Ray had to do was wash up, collect his lunch, buy a bottle of Dr Pepper and return to the 6th floor. I doubt this took more than five minutes to do.
There is no time for Oswald to make his preparations if he was down on the first floor while Bonnie Ray was on the 6th.

Another 'lie by omission' committed by the WC Sham was Arnold Rowland's observation of a white, slender man carrying a scoped rifle at the southwest end of the 6th floor. This stunning piece of evidence was simply ignored by the WC, as if Rowland had made up this observation and, by some miracle, had guessed there was a white, slender male carrying a scoped rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building.

And the gullible Nutters just swallow down everything they are told to, ignoring the string of obvious lies and manipulations that prop up their spoon-fed beliefs.

Well I’m actually trying to work it out that it is plausible that Oswald was the shooter but so far as you have read, my solution seems highly improbable without resorting to excuses such as Dougherty was apparently so cognitively disabled that he would have missed seeing or at least hearing Oswald. Or that when Garner said she followed Adams and Stiles “ almost immediately “ and was “ right behind them” that this description of the time is 65 seconds post shots.

[John Corbett]

Well I’m actually trying to work it out that it is plausible the Oswald was the shooter but so far as you have read, my solution seems highly improbable without resorting to excuses such as Dougherty was confused and this apparently so cognitively disabled that he would have missed seeing or at least hearing Oswald. Or that when Garner said she followed Adams and Stiles “ almost immediately “ and was “ right behind them” that description of the time is 65 seconds post shots.

Trying to sync up Adams', Stiles', and Garner's trip down the stair with when Oswald was on the stairs is an exercise in folly. Nobody was running a stopwatch on the day of the assassination, so everyone is guessing about when they were on the stairs. They could have been on the stairs before or more likely s little after Oswald. Since they were all going in the same direction, there is no reason to believe they would have crossed paths.

You were non-specific about what Dougherty's observations regarding Oswald you were referring to. If you are referring to the fact he didn't notice Oswald brought a package into the TSBD, this doesn't mean he was confused or cognitively disabled. It means he was human. People just don't take note of mundane details that wouldn't have seemed the least bit important at the time. Our brains do not have DVDs imbedded in them. We only remember fractions of the things we see, and when asked about details later on, our brains try to fill in the blanks, usually somewhat inaccurately.