How Do LNers Deal With Givens?

[Tim Nickerson]

Surely you're joking. "Please read it again"? What don't you understand here? You can read it a thousand times, and it's still going to read that Ford replaced "at a point slightly below the shoulder" with "the back of his neck."

Ford did no such thing.

Sheesh, even Google AI says that Ford changed the wound's description so that it would "better align" with the single-bullet theory:

Gerald Ford successfully pushed the Warren Commission to change the written description of President John F. Kennedy's back wound from the upper back to the base of the neck to better align with the single-bullet theory. (Google "gerald ford's alteration of the description of jfk's back wound")

I was surprised by this acknowledgment because Google AI usually gives answers that are pro-WC.

Google Ai doesn't say that Ford changed the wound's description. Google Ai says that the Warren Commission changed the wound's description.

And surely you can't look at the autopsy photo of the back wound and claim with a straight face that it shows the wound in "the back of his neck" where Humes put it in his drawing for the WC, can you? The HSCA FPP concluded the photo puts the wound at T1, which is a good 2 inches lower than where Humes placed it in his WC drawing. Indeed, the FPP said they placed the wound "in the back area" and "a few inches lower" than where Humes put it in his drawing:

The panel also places the entrance perforation on the lower, in the back area, a few inches lower than illustrated in this drawing. (1 HSCA 256)

But Humes's wound diagram for the WC put the wound at C3 or C4, not C7. He put the wound noticeably above the throat wound, as we see in CE 385. Humes had to put the back wound above the throat because he and the WC claimed the bullet traveled a "downward path" from the back wound to the throat wound, a piece of pure fiction that even the HSCA FPP rejected.

Humes placed the wound too high in the Rydberg drawings. Those drawings are godawful.

A bullet entering at C7 would have struck barely level with or slightly below the throat wound. A bullet entering at T1 would have struck at least 1/3 of an inch below the throat wound,

I have a couple of images on my IMGUR page that show you to be wrong.

which is one reason the HSCA FPP said the bullet hit the back at an upward angle and that it tunneled upward, a fact that Dr. Werner Spitz had confirmed for the Rockefeller Commission three years earlier:

There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)

This is why the FPP had to assume that JFK was leaning so far forward as to be nearly doubled over when the bullet struck, as Dr. Baden was nice enough to demonstrate in front of TV cameras.

The HSCA FPP did not say that the bullet hit the back at an upward angle. Nor did it assume that JFK was leaning far forward. Several members of the panel believed that the bullet hit at an upward angle if the President had been fully upright. Several members. Not the panel as a whole. Not even a majority. Werner Spitz would have been among the several. They were wrong.

Also, we know the back wound was actually at T3, as documented in the death certificate (marked "verified") and on the autopsy face sheet (also marked "verified"), and as confirmed by the hard physical evidence of the rear JFK clothing holes.

Sibert and O'Neill insisted the back wound was well below the throat wound and could not have exited the throat.

A careful look at the autopsy photo of the back wound shows the photo is consistent with the T3 location, when you take into account the fact that the head is tilted substantially backward, so much so that two lines of folded skin can be seen on the upper part of the neck just below the hairline. With those two lines of folded skin unfolded, the wound could very well be at T3 or more than halfway between T2 and T3.

"JFK's Clothing Proves the Single-Bullet Theory Is Impossible"

"Where Was President Kennedy's Back Wound?"

The wound was at about T1/C7. The autopsy facesheet has it 14 cm below the tip of the right mastoid process. JFK's jacket and shirt were bunched up at the time of the shot.

Sibert and O'Neill were wrong.

In examining the autopsy photos, the Clark Panel measured the entry wound to be about 3.5 cm above the wound in the throat when the body was fully upright.

From their Report:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md59/html/Image07.htm

Examination of photographs of anterior and posterior views of thorax, and anterior, posterior and lateral views of neck (Photographs 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 38, 39, 40, 41).

"There is an elliptical penetrating wound of the skin of the back located approximately 15 cm. medial to the right acromial process, 5 cm. lateral to the mid-dorsal line and 14 cm. below the right mastoid process. This wound lies approximately 5.5 cm. below a transverse fold in the skin of the neck. This fold can also be seen in a lateral view of the neck which shows an anterior tracheotomy wound. This view makes it possible to compare the levels of these two wounds in relation to that of the horizontal plane of the body. A well defined zone of discoloration of the edge of the back wound, most pronounced on its upper and outer margins, identifies it as having the characteristics of the entrance wound of a bullet. The wound with its marginal abrasion measures approximately 7 mm. in width by 10 mm. in length. The dimensions of this cutaneous wound are consistent with those of a wound produced by a bullet similar to that which constitutes exhibit CE 399. At the site of and above the tracheotomy incision in the front of the neck, there can be identified the upper half of the circumference of a circular cutaneous wound the appearance of which is characteristic of that of the exit wound of a bullet. The lower half of this circular wound is obscured by the surgically produced tracheotomy incision which transects it. The center of the circular wound is situated approximately 9 cm. below the transverse fold in the skin of the neck described in a preceding paragraph. This indicates that the bullet which produced the two wounds followed a course downward and to the left in its passage through the body."

[Tim Nickerson]

I don't believe you understand what "hyperbole" means.
When you start by describing the SBT as "rock solid", does that make you look ridiculous?

So, do you accept givens went back up to the 6th floor or not? It's the topic of this thread after all 

If I didn't understand the meaning of the word I wouldn't have used it.

The SBT is rock solid. Those who argue against it do so out of ignorance or dishonesty. Or just plain old stupidity. I'm not comfortable applying any of those three to Andrew Mason though. He has spent so much time and effort over the years building and defending his theory, that he just cannot bring himself to admit to himself that he's wrong.

On edit: some argue against the SBT because they just like to argue.

I do accept that Givens went back up to the 6th floor. I wouldn't care if he had not.  It's not important that he did.

[Dan O'meara]

Back to the topic of Givens … from what I’ve read of Givens vs Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony, Givens used the EAST elevator while Williams used the WEST elevator. Givens took the East elevator from
the 6th floor at about 5 minutes to 12:00
back down to  the 1st floor and he saw that the west elevator was not there on the 1st floor.

Williams said he used the West elevator to go to 6th floor about 12:00. So unless somebody else used the West elevator between Givens and Williams, then Williams was going up in the West elevator when Givens was coming down! 

Of Givens account is true, and Williams account is true, then Oswald still on the 6th floor at 5 minutes till
12:00 had TWO opportunities to have gone down to the 1st floor riding either with Givens or using the West elevator just a mere 30 secs later when Williams arrived to the 6th floor.

So IF Givens 5min till 12:00 East elevator trip to the 6th floor is true and he saw Oswald there  and IF Bonnie Ray Williams 12:00 West elevator ride to 6th floor is true an BRW did NOT see Oswald there, and IF it’s true that Eddie Piper saw Oswald on the 1st floor at 12:00, then it is an extremely high probability that Oswald used the stairs to get down to meet Piper at 12:00.

So this leads to question why would Oswald turn down 2 opportunities to ride on an elevator down to the 1st floor, electing instead to trek down 6 flights of 18 step staircases and 120 ft of floor landings? Did Oswald like exercising that much? Or did as he trying out the stairs for some other reason?

Oswald was trying to get down to the first floor while the elevator race was on.
Both elevators were now on the first floor.
Givens never went back up to the 6th floor.
Williams took a few minutes to clean up, collect his lunch and buy a bottle of Dr. Pepper before returning to the 6th floor. He could have been on the 6th floor as early as 11:55am.
Oswald was seen on the first floor by Piper around 12 noon which means he did make his way down from the 5th floor. He either called up an elevator and rode it down or, if the gate had not been put down, he had to get down using the stairs.

The point is that the Givens story about going back up to the 6th and seeing Oswald near the southeast corner was a total fabrication.
We know from the testimonies of Lovelady, Williams and Arce that Oswald wanted to get down to the first floor.
We know from the testimony of Piper that he did make it down to the first floor.,
But all this testimony was deliberately omitted in favour of the fake Givens story which gave the impression that Oswald was last seen on the 6th floor near the location from which the shooting had taken place when, in fact, he was last seen on the first floor around 12 noon.

[Dan O'meara]

If I didn't understand the meaning of the word I wouldn't have used it.

The SBT is rock solid. Those who argue against it do so out of ignorance or dishonesty. Or just plain old stupidity. I'm not comfortable applying any of those three to Andrew Mason though. He has spent so much time and effort over the years building and defending his theory, that he just cannot bring himself to admit to himself that he's wrong.

On edit: some argue against the SBT because they just like to argue.

I do accept that Givens went back up to the 6th floor. I wouldn't care if he had not.  It's not important that he did.

Why do you accept that Givens went back up to the 6th floor?
Don't you think his observation of the prime suspect for the assassination of the President at the location from where the shots were taken would have come to light during his extensive questioning by Fritz and the FBI?
Do you think this observation is trivial and not really worth mentioning?

[Tim Nickerson]

Why do you accept that Givens went back up to the 6th floor?
Don't you think his observation of the prime suspect for the assassination of the President at the location from where the shots were taken would have come to light during his extensive questioning by Fritz and the FBI?
Do you think this observation is trivial and not really worth mentioning?

Why wouldn't I accept it? Givens said that he saw Oswald on the 6th floor at about 11:55 AM. So what?

[Zeon Mason]

Well the east elevator was on the ground floor when James Jarman and Harold Norman returned into TSBD on the 1st floor from the rear loading dock door at approximately 12:23.

If Givens story is fabricated, then Oswald could be the last one who used the east elevator at 12:00.

And where was Dougherty at this time between 11:45 and 12:30. Was not he supposedly on the 5th floor the whole time. He did not see Oswald at all? He didn’t see or hear Givens going up on the east elevator passing by the 5th floor ? He did not see or hear Williams west elevator go past the 5th floor. He did not hear or see Harold Norman and James Jarman getting off the east elevator onto the 5th floor at 12:23? He did not hear or see Bonnie Ray Williams bring the west elevator down from 6th floor to 5th floor about 12:24, did not see BRW exit the elevator and walk across the floor to join Norman and Jarman at their windows?
Dougherty on the 5th floor ( and briefly on the 6th floor ) during the period from 11:45 till 12:30
missed all this activity of  going and coming of people, he missed seeing/  hearing Oswald shout to send the elevator back up, missed seeing the elevator race, missed hearing Truly shout up for the elevator and although Dougherty was on the same 5th floor with Norman, he heard only ONE loud noise when the shooting began.

It’s seems improbable. Dougherty must have been hiding somewhere ( like the 7th floor ? ) and was completely asleep to have missed so much.

[Tim Nickerson]

A bullet entering at C7 would have struck barely level with or slightly below the throat wound. A bullet entering at T1 would have struck at least 1/3 of an inch below the throat wound,