The JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate
Fourth Edition of "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wounds"
Tim Nickerson:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on September 04, 2026, 01:58:08 PM ---This is incorrect, as I've explained to you before in other threads, and as I document in my article "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wounds," which is the subject of this thread. Have you read my article yet? It deals extensively with the WC's head-shot wound-ballistics test.
For starters -- again, as I've pointed out to you before -- the extant x-rays of the skulls from the WC's test refute any notion that the bullets exploded into dozens of fragments, much less that their fragmentation pattern resembles the pattern we see in the JFK autopsy skull x-rays.
Dr. Olivier specified to Howard Donahue in 1969 that the bullets in the WC's test only broke into a few fragments each time.
Even if we take CE 857 and CE 859 at face value, they show that the WC's test did not duplicate the fragmentation seen in the autopsy skull x-rays. Rather than reinvent the wheel, I quote from my article:
CE 859 shows more fragments than are seen in CE 857. It appears to show between 26 and 30 fragments, and all of them are either small or very small—not one of them is as large as the two large fragments seen in CE 857.
Yet, even CE 859 shows fewer fragments than the JFK autopsy skull x-rays show. The skull x-rays show about 40 tiny fragments just in the right-frontal region alone—these fragments have been described as a "snowstorm.” To the viewer's left of this fragment cloud we see a number of other fragments that are larger in size than the cloud fragments and that extend upward to a point at least 1 inch from the debunked cowlick entry site. Not one of the bullets in Olivier's
head-shot test deposited a "snowstorm" of tiny fragments in the right-frontal region, or in any region, and none of them left a trail of fragments that ranged upward from the fragment cloud.
In addition, the JFK autopsy skull x-rays show at least two fragments on the back of the skull, one in the outer table and another between the galea and the outer table. Not one of the bullets in the WC's tests deposited fragments on or above the outer table.
Given Dr. Olivier’s statements to Donahue in 1969, and given the obvious discrepancy between the fragments seen in CE 857 and CE 859, it seems apparent that the two exhibits consist of fragments from more than just one of the FMJ bullets, and perhaps from all 10 of the FMJ bullets, that were fired in Olivier’s test.
Furthermore, if the CE 857 and CE 859 fragments really came from only one of the test bullets, what about the fragments from the nine other bullets? Leaving aside the fact that the two exhibits obviously do not contain the same fragments, even though Dr. Olivier said they should, the fact that no fragments from the nine other bullets were identified as such or entered into evidence as such raises serious doubts about the integrity of the two exhibits. (pp. 12-13)
--- End quote ---
Stewart stated that his own test in firing 6.5 Carcano bullets into pig skulls resulted in only minor skull fracturing and no fragmentation/jacket separation of the bullets. I was merely informing him that the firing of WCC 6.5 mm FMJ bullets into the skulls of human cadavers at Edgewood Arsenal resulted in the bullets massively fragmenting and the heads exploding as well. Your declaration that my information is incorrect reveals that you continue to respond to posts like mine without taking the time to understand what you are replying to.
FTR, I recall counting about 40 fragments in CE-859. Those fragments were collected by Olivier.
Just one more thing; The X-Rays do not show two fragments on the back of the skull. The "6.5 mm object" seen in the AP view is the 7mm x 2mm fragment that Humes removed from behind and just above the right eye. The right lateral X-Ray shows a large fragment imbedded in the frontal skull bone. It is also visible on the AP view but it is mistaken by many to be the 7mm by 2mm fragment. That Has been pointed out to you by me numerous times. You avoid addressing it because you are unable to say where that imbedded fragment is in the AP view.
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on September 04, 2026, 01:58:08 PM ---This is incorrect, as I've explained to you before in other threads, and as I document in my article "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wounds," which is the subject of this thread. Have you read my article yet? It deals extensively with the WC's head-shot wound-ballistics test.
For starters -- again, as I've pointed out to you before -- the extant x-rays of the skulls from the WC's test refute any notion that the bullets exploded into dozens of fragments, much less that their fragmentation pattern resembles the pattern we see in the JFK autopsy skull x-rays.
Dr. Olivier specified to Howard Donahue in 1969 that the bullets in the WC's test only broke into a few fragments each time.
Even if we take CE 857 and CE 859 at face value, they show that the WC's test did not duplicate the fragmentation seen in the autopsy skull x-rays. Rather than reinvent the wheel, I quote from my article:
CE 859 shows more fragments than are seen in CE 857. It appears to show between 26 and 30 fragments, and all of them are either small or very small—not one of them is as large as the two large fragments seen in CE 857.
Yet, even CE 859 shows fewer fragments than the JFK autopsy skull x-rays show. The skull x-rays show about 40 tiny fragments just in the right-frontal region alone—these fragments have been described as a "snowstorm.” To the viewer's left of this fragment cloud we see a number of other fragments that are larger in size than the cloud fragments and that extend upward to a point at least 1 inch from the debunked cowlick entry site. Not one of the bullets in Olivier's
head-shot test deposited a "snowstorm" of tiny fragments in the right-frontal region, or in any region, and none of them left a trail of fragments that ranged upward from the fragment cloud.
In addition, the JFK autopsy skull x-rays show at least two fragments on the back of the skull, one in the outer table and another between the galea and the outer table. Not one of the bullets in the WC's tests deposited fragments on or above the outer table.
Given Dr. Olivier’s statements to Donahue in 1969, and given the obvious discrepancy between the fragments seen in CE 857 and CE 859, it seems apparent that the two exhibits consist of fragments from more than just one of the FMJ bullets, and perhaps from all 10 of the FMJ bullets, that were fired in Olivier’s test.
Furthermore, if the CE 857 and CE 859 fragments really came from only one of the test bullets, what about the fragments from the nine other bullets? Leaving aside the fact that the two exhibits obviously do not contain the same fragments, even though Dr. Olivier said they should, the fact that no fragments from the nine other bullets were identified as such or entered into evidence as such raises serious doubts about the integrity of the two exhibits. (pp. 12-13)
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The demand for duplication of the JFK assassination is one of the biggest red herrings the CT crowd as ever floated. As if any shooting can be duplicated. Every shooting is a unique event with unique results. I don't know of any other murder case in which the prosecution was required to duplicate the shooting. It's an unreasonable demand from unreasonable people.
Stewart Fillmore:
--- Quote from: Tim Nickerson on September 04, 2026, 03:47:26 AM ---Have you read the WC Testimonies of Alfred Olivier and Arthur Dziemian and their "Wound Ballistics of 6.5 mm Mannlicher Carcano Ammunition" report? Their firing of WCC 6.5 mm FMJ bullets into the skulls of human cadavers resulted in the bullets massively fragmenting and the heads exploding as well.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/dziemian.htm
https://www.maryferrell.org/xdoc/62296#relPageId=1&search=edgewood%20
--- End quote ---
I have read the testimony. What I wanted to test was how two large fragments (567 and 569) deflected upwards off a an approximate 15 degree downward vertical angle to hit the windshield and the windshield frame. They didn’t document fragment trajectory. Generally speaking (and bullets do crazy things) when the jacket shears off an FMJ the core will continue on the same vector. Their test skulls were filled with ballistic gel to simulate brain tissue and covered with an additional layer of gel and goat skin. I don’t know how they attached the skin to the gel but it’s a reasonable set up. The one skull they published however had significant damage to the face and more apparent overall bone loss (possibly due to there being more brittleness to the dried skulls). Regardless the face damage on the test skull would indicate the bullet (or at least the core didn’t deviate significantly off path). So I wanted to see if a fragmenting Carcano would deflect upwards through actual skull and brain tissue. I only shot three pig’s heads but there was no deviation of trajectory and the jacket’s didn’t separate. I was actually expecting the (and hoping) the jacket would separate because the purpose was to see how much the core would come apart. We did fire one of the Carcano’s straight into the ground because we were having trouble recovering the test bullets from the berm we were shooting into. The bullet went 23 inches into the round. The jacket and core separated but the core stayed intact (it was deformed but no fragments broke off from it. Im not surprised the Edgewood testing shattered the skulls. But actual scalp is way tougher than a layer of ballistic gel. Thats why I used the pig’s heads. But I couldn’t get the jackets to separate.
Stewart Fillmore:
--- Quote from: Tim Nickerson on September 04, 2026, 03:51:43 AM ---FBI firearms examiner Robert Frazier said that he could make no determinations from the holes in the shirt and jacket due to the fact that they had been laundered. I assume that the pants had been cleaned as well.
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I think more specifically Frazier testified he could not determine directionality and metal content because the clothes had been compromised by the dry cleaning. However he acknowledged that some type of missile caused the damage. Thus it’s possible to recreate the holes in surrogate clothes based on the documented measurements/locations of the bullet holes and run string through the holes to get some idea of the path. I did it with a mannequin arm with holes in it corresponding to JBC’s wounds and with a stand in with string taped to the corresponding locations of the wounds. It revealed the French cuff had to be entirely out of the suit sleeve and the forearm pronated to an extreme degree of its range. It’s entirely possible that’s how JBC was sitting but it’s an awkward position.
Tim Nickerson:
--- Quote from: Stewart Fillmore on September 05, 2026, 03:59:18 PM ---
I have read the testimony. What I wanted to test was how two large fragments (567 and 569) deflected upwards off a an approximate 15 degree downward vertical angle to hit the windshield and the windshield frame. They didn’t document fragment trajectory. Generally speaking (and bullets do crazy things) when the jacket shears off an FMJ the core will continue on the same vector. Their test skulls were filled with ballistic gel to simulate brain tissue and covered with an additional layer of gel and goat skin. I don’t know how they attached the skin to the gel but it’s a reasonable set up. The one skull they published however had significant damage to the face and more apparent overall bone loss (possibly due to there being more brittleness to the dried skulls). Regardless the face damage on the test skull would indicate the bullet (or at least the core didn’t deviate significantly off path). So I wanted to see if a fragmenting Carcano would deflect upwards through actual skull and brain tissue. I only shot three pig’s heads but there was no deviation of trajectory and the jacket’s didn’t separate. I was actually expecting the (and hoping) the jacket would separate because the purpose was to see how much the core would come apart. We did fire one of the Carcano’s straight into the ground because we were having trouble recovering the test bullets from the berm we were shooting into. The bullet went 23 inches into the round. The jacket and core separated but the core stayed intact (it was deformed but no fragments broke off from it. Im not surprised the Edgewood testing shattered the skulls. But actual scalp is way tougher than a layer of ballistic gel. Thats why I used the pig’s heads. But I couldn’t get the jackets to separate.
--- End quote ---
The fragments didn't deflect upwards. The deformed bullet curved upward as it passed through the head, fragmenting as it went. The curvature of the path was considerable, considering that the bullet entered just above the EOP at a downward angle of 12 degrees.
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