The JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate
Fourth Edition of "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wounds"
Stewart Fillmore:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on September 03, 2026, 02:51:50 PM ---Two SBT wound-ballistics tests (one of Lattimer's tests and an Australian test) actually duplicated all the wounds posited by the SBT, but in both cases the bullets emerged visibly more damaged than CE 399.
And, of course, both of those tests assumed that JFK and Connally were aligned in a way to make the wounding possible in the first place, when in fact the most advanced, sophisticated SBT trajectory analysis ever done, the 2023 Knott Lab analysis, found that the two men were not aligned in a way that would make the SBT theoretically possible. In addition, the few pro-SBT trajectory analyses have had to make demonstrably invalid assumptions about the size of Connally's back wound (doubling its size), the size and nature of the wound path through Connally's chest (ignoring the fact that it was rather narrow), and JFK and Connally's positions and rotations (putting the men in positions and/or rotations that are wholly unsupported by the photographic evidence).
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I’m not aware of Lattimer duplicating the overall shot with dummies set up in the same relative positions as JFK and JBC as Alex Krstic (the Australian test) did on the Unsolved History episode. Lattimer duplicated several elements of the SBT but if he did an overall reconstruction, I’d like to see his results if you can tell me where I could find it.
The Krstic test actually set up the reconstruction pretty rigorously following the parameters of the shot with JFK and JBC in their relative positions. They marked the entry point approximately 14 cm below the dummy’s mastoid process. They shot from 60 feet up and hit just a little low and left of the aim point. They showed a graphic from a side view showing the bullet exited in JFK’s chest, well below the throat. They failed to show the actual exit point but through a narrator said the single bullet theory worked. The bullet’s nose was flattened and the bullet shaft bent. The narrator explained that the nose was flattened because the bullet struck two ribs in the test—otherwise it would have been very similar to 399. They forgot to add that 399 struck JBC’s wrist bone.
But you’re absolutely correct about the alignment issues. My testing on both the range and with a 1:1 model of the limousine using mannequins and stand ins, has revealed neither the vertical angle (slope), nor the horizontal angle (right to left direction) of the shot works. The 17 degree slope of the shot exits 2 1/2 inches below the throat with an entry on the suit coat 5 3/8 inches below the top of the collar (with the coat bunched approximately 2 inches). It gets further out of whack with the 13 degree right to left aspect of the shot. My testing has revealed JBC’s midline sitting centered in a 20.5 inch wide jump seat placed 2.5 inches from the car door had to be moved 9 inches inboard for the shot to align. This was done with string run through pre cut holes in the mannequins/stand ins clothes at the exact FBI measurements. The string forces the geometry and I think is more compelling than animated reconstructions.
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Stewart Fillmore on September 04, 2026, 01:27:36 AM ---I’m not aware of Lattimer duplicating the overall shot with dummies set up in the same relative positions as JFK and JBC as Alex Krstic (the Australian test) did on the Unsolved History episode. Lattimer duplicated several elements of the SBT but if he did an overall reconstruction, I’d like to see his results if you can tell me where I could find it.
The Krstic test actually set up the reconstruction pretty rigorously following the parameters of the shot with JFK and JBC in their relative positions. They marked the entry point approximately 14 cm below the dummy’s mastoid process. They shot from 60 feet up and hit just a little low and left of the aim point. They showed a graphic from a side view showing the bullet exited in JFK’s chest, well below the throat. They failed to show the actual exit point but through a narrator said the single bullet theory worked. The bullet’s nose was flattened and the bullet shaft bent. The narrator explained that the nose was flattened because the bullet struck two ribs in the test—otherwise it would have been very similar to 399. They forgot to add that 399 struck JBC’s wrist bone.
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In all probability, CE399 had turned end for end or close to it when it had hit the wrist bone. Given the likelihood the bullet yawed upon exit from JFK's throat, it's likely the tumbling action would have continued as the bullet passed through JBC's chest and blew out a section of rib. It's impossible to say whether the flattening at the base occurred when the bullet hit rib or when it hit the wrist. The fact lead fragments were deposited in JBC's wrist and the lead was only exposed at the base bullet further indicates it's likely the wrist was struck by the base of the bullet and not the nose. There's no reason to believe the nose would be flattened when it didn't hit anything hard.
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But you’re absolutely correct about the alignment issues. My testing on both the range and with a 1:1 model of the limousine using mannequins and stand ins, has revealed neither the vertical angle (slope), nor the horizontal angle (right to left direction) of the shot works. The 17 degree slope of the shot exits 2 1/2 inches below the throat with an entry on the suit coat 5 3/8 inches below the top of the collar (with the coat bunched approximately 2 inches). It gets further out of whack with the 13 degree right to left aspect of the shot. My testing has revealed JBC’s midline sitting centered in a 20.5 inch wide jump seat placed 2.5 inches from the car door had to be moved 9 inches inboard for the shot to align. This was done with string run through pre cut holes in the mannequins/stand ins clothes at the exact FBI measurements. The string forces the geometry and I think is more compelling than animated reconstructions.
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9 inches is approximately how far inboard JBC was from JFK. We know this because of the movie David Powers was taking from the Queen Mary. We can see roughly half of JBC's torso in front of JFK. It it wasn't half a body width, it was close to it. Did you take into account that JBC's shoulders were turned to the right at the time the bullet hit.
Since you believe JBC wasn't far enough left of JFK to have been hit next to the armpit, why didn't the bullet exiting JFK's throat hit more toward the center or even the left side of JBC's back. How could that shot have missed him completely. It makes no sense.
As for the Knott Lab animation, it is primitive compared to what Dale Myers had done more than 20 years earlier. The graphics were on par with 1980s era video games. Even with the low grade graphics, they slid JBC to various positions in front of JFK and the position he was in when they showed the bullet hitting next to his armpit, it looked very close to the position the Z-film showed he was in. Since they only showed the view from the side and not from behind or above, we can't really see where JBC would have been positioned for the bullet to hit next to his armpit. Myers 3D animation allowed views from any angle at any point during the animation. If the Knott Lab animation allowed that, they didn't show those views on their website.
Stewart Fillmore:
--- Quote from: John Corbett on September 03, 2026, 03:52:09 PM ---Elements of a shooting can be replicated individually to demonstrate what is possible. For example the Haag forensic team demonstrated by firing a Carcano round through ballistic gel that such a round tends to yaw upon exiting soft tissue. That doesn't prove the bullet that left JFK's throat yawed upon exiting but combined with the fact that the entry wound on JBC's back was elongated, it seems highly likely that is what happened. Likewise, an Australian documentary team used animal carcasses to simulate JFK's and JBC's bodies. It took them a number of tries before they got the bullet to pass through the simulated soft tissue and bone that the single bullet would have but when they did, the bullet ended up looking very similar to CE399. The nose was intact and there was flattening at the base. The bullet was bent more than CE399 but it is unreasonable to expect such an experiment could perfectly replicate CE399.
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Indeed the Carcano bullet tends to yaw upon exiting. I’ve recreated it with ballistic dummies with pigskin wrapped around the neck while wearing a dress shirt, necktie and suit coat. In fact most times (3 of 4 in my testing) made full side on entries in the Connally dummy. But Connally’s jacket didn’t reflect a side on entry but a 1/2 by 3/8 inch hole (which was compromised as evidence because it was dry cleaned before being properly analyzed. Haag incorrectly said that Connally had a full side on wound. Dr Shaw described the wound as elliptical and 1.5 cm in its greatest diameter. He later told the HSCA he felt the wound was from a tangential entry rather than a yawing bullet. But I agree, an elongated wound could indicate the bullet had been knocked off a stable trajectory (ie going thru JFK first). However, Connally said consistently until the day he died that he was turning as he was hit. I know from many firearms training sessions in the FBI using turning targets that a stable bullet striking a rotating target will leave an elongated entry. So I did tests on the range shooting into the Connally target while it was rotated from its right to left. The results were an elongated entry approximately 1.5 cm wide.
Regarding the Australian test, if you’re talking about the one done for Unsolved History (JFK Beyond the Magic Bullet) by Alex Krstic, they didn’t shoot animals (the Edgewood testing did) but ballistic dummies with bones embedded in the Connally dummy. They set it up following the SBT parameters fairly accurately. Yet despite an exit well below the throat in JFK’s chest. They recovered the bullet and its nose was deformed and the shaft of the bullet was bent. Despite both these discrepancies, the narrator stated the single bullet theory had been confirmed.
Interestingly when I first started my testing, I tried simply to replicate the 1/2 inch overlapping vertical slits in the dress that J Edgar Hoover told the WC was typical of a bullet exiting cloth. I also faithfully set up my dummy (with the same ballistic gel covered around the neck with pigskin and wearing a suit) by the WC parameters. My aim point was 5 3/8 inches below the top of the suit collar with the jacket bunched approximately 2 inches and the dummy sitting normally upright. With a 17 degree shot to that point, I not only got a round exit hole but an exit in the chest 2 1/2 inches below the throat. To get the bullet to exit near the shirt collar, it took a near horizontal shot aimed at the suit collar. I ran it 19 times and got 19 round exit holes—not a single vertical slit. But the trajectory discrepancy really intrigued me and led to the remainder of my SBT testing.
Stewart Fillmore:
--- Quote from: John Corbett on September 04, 2026, 02:08:35 AM ---In all probability, CE399 had turned end for end or close to it when it had hit the wrist bone. Given the likelihood the bullet yawed upon exit from JFK's throat, it's likely the tumbling action would have continued as the bullet passed through JBC's chest and blew out a section of rib. It's impossible to say whether the flattening at the base occurred when the bullet hit rib or when it hit the wrist. The fact lead fragments were deposited in JBC's wrist and the lead was only exposed at the base bullet further indicates it's likely the wrist was struck by the base of the bullet and not the nose. There's no reason to believe the nose would be flattened when it didn't hit anything hard.
9 inches is approximately how far inboard JBC was from JFK. We know this because of the movie David Powers was taking from the Queen Mary. We can see roughly half of JBC's torso in front of JFK. It it wasn't half a body width, it was close to it. Did you take into account that JBC's shoulders were turned to the right at the time the bullet hit.
Since you believe JBC wasn't far enough left of JFK to have been hit next to the armpit, why didn't the bullet exiting JFK's throat hit more toward the center or even the left side of JBC's back. How could that shot have missed him completely. It makes no sense.
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I should clarify that the additional 9 inches inboard I mentioned for the string to align based on a 13 degree horizontal angle (HSCA finding) was measured from the middle of the 20.5 inch wide jump seat. I started under the presumption that Connally would have been centered in the seat (which was 2.5 inches inboard) and took measurements from there. Because JFK was sitting at the far right side of the car, it had the effect of Connally being inboard of him by several inches. But even with this offset the string had to make a 15 degree right turn from JFK’s left edge of the necktie to get to Connally’s right shoulder. So to align the string, the dummy had to be moved (I did the same test with a stand in) 9 inches further inboard. Since he started out with his midline already 11 3/4 inches inboard, the additional 9 inches out half his body off the jumpseat near the middle of the car. This means Connally’s tailbone had to move 9 inches left when he turned. This is not supported by his positioning in relation to the limousine opera window seen in either Z190 (HSCA estimate of the shot) or Z223 (~WC estimate). This discrepancy can easily be seen in the published WC photos taken by the FBI during the May 1964 reenactment with a camera set up to look through Oswald’s scope. The vertical post of the scope’s reticle (which dictates where the bullet would strike right, left or center of target) is clearly over Connally’s left side for frames 207 and 222. I agree it makes no sense but I’ll tell you this horizontal angle discrepancy is even more apparent on the gun range. It was so obvious that the bullet wouldn’t align, that it wasn’t worth wasting the ammo.
--- Quote from: John Corbett on September 04, 2026, 02:08:35 AM ---As for the Knott Lab animation, it is primitive compared to what Dale Myers had done more than 20 years earlier. The graphics were on par with 1980s era video games. Even with the low grade graphics, they slid JBC to various positions in front of JFK and the position he was in when they showed the bullet hitting next to his armpit, it looked very close to the position the Z-film showed he was in. Since they only showed the view from the side and not from behind or above, we can't really see where JBC would have been positioned for the bullet to hit next to his armpit. Myers 3D animation allowed views from any angle at any point during the animation. If the Knott Lab animation allowed that, they didn't show those views on their website.
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I don’t give either the Knott Labs or the Dale Myers animations much credibility. The Galaga machine I played back in the early 80s had better looking tech than either one. But appearance aside, I believe they are both can be easily manipulated to get a wanted result. I find my method of a 1:1 mockup with same size mannequins and stand ins wearing the size clothes with holes in the exactly the official measured locations placed in seats measured from the Hess and Eisenhardt blueprint published by the WC. Although I painstakingly measured everything (and checked twice) I acknowledge there could be measurement errors—but they’re very slight. And as I said, the string forces the geometry and is either straight or it’s not.
Tim Nickerson:
--- Quote from: Stewart Fillmore on August 31, 2026, 10:54:07 PM ---As part of an ongoing project testing the forensic/ballistic elements of the assassination. I’ve done extensive and redundant ballistic testing, trajectory analysis and forensic reconstructions. To test the head shot trajectory and fragmentation pattern, I shot three intact pig’s heads. I had pre and post X-rays taken. Using surplus 6.5 Carcano on one of the heads, the shot did not explode the head and left a relatively small exit hole (8-9mm) with minor skull fracturing. A witness panel 2 feet behind the head revealed only a slight yaw and the x-ray showed no fragmentation/jacket separation. The maintained its trajectory through the skull into the witness panel. Then using .257 Roberts with a thin jacketed sierra matchking projectile at 3300 fps, it took out the occipital skull and most of the brain with it. It left the characteristic lead snowstorm on the x-ray and the smallest of fragments on the witness panel.
I was a little uncertain as to the cortical thickness of the skull so I did a separate test shooting a 7 mm thick pork shoulder blade embedded on one end of a 8 inch ballistic gel block and pork ribs on the other end. The Carcano round made a 6 mm round hole in the shoulder blade, cut a straight path through the ballistic gel, and clipped the edge of one if the ribs leaving a perfect semi circle. The witness panel again showed a slight yaw and no fragmentation/jacket separation whatsoever with no deviation in trajectory.
I’ve long been skeptical of the trajectories of CE 567 and 569, so that was the purpose of the test—but I couldn’t get the Carcano jacket to shear.
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Have you read the WC Testimonies of Alfred Olivier and Arthur Dziemian and their "Wound Ballistics of 6.5 mm Mannlicher Carcano Ammunition" report? Their firing of WCC 6.5 mm FMJ bullets into the skulls of human cadavers resulted in the bullets massively fragmenting and the heads exploding as well.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/olivier.htm
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/dziemian.htm
https://www.maryferrell.org/xdoc/62296#relPageId=1&search=edgewood%20
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