Determining a Timestamp for Darnell

[Dan O'meara]

    Where is Zapruder? The Bell Film shows Wiegman running across the stairs/directly toward Zapruder. He gets very close to Zapruder. Wiegman then hangs a (L) and runs down the knoll between the Stemmons Sign and the Newman Family. We should be able to see a trace of the lower body of Zapruder up atop the steps. We do Not. Why? Zapruder has moved during a "Time Gap" here. "Missing Time"! Maybe, Wiegman for whatever reason, Stopped up there before hanging a (L) and running down the knoll. Remember that in "Pictures Of The Pain" (1994), Wiegman said that he saw SA Lem Johns UP-The-Knoll. Maybe this time gap/lost time is when Wiegman saw SA Lem Johns up-the-knoll? Maybe Wiegman filmed SA Lem Johns during this "time gap"? SA Johns claimed that he Never left Elm St after he jumped out of the LBJ SS Car.  The FBI has always claimed that no agents were assigned a ground position inside Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.
    The Yellow Circled Officer Hargis is also a problem. He gave WC Testimony that he ran to that little wall that runs down from Zapruder. Hargis thought a shooter had fired from atop the Triple Underpass. He wanted to get a good look at the top of the Triple Underpass while covered by the short wall. But Hargis being behind the short wall is not on any image.
     The Wiegman Film was claimed to have been shot "continuously" for 30+ years following the assassination. "Pictures Of The Pain" comes out 31 yrs after the assassination with Wiegman claiming to have seen SA Lem Johns "Up-The Knoll", and all the sudden the Wiegman Film is now claimed to NOT be filmed continuously. There is a connection.

The Bell Film shows Wiegman running across the stairs/directly toward Zapruder.

The Bell film shows Weigman (circled in red) lying on the steps. He has just finished filming the Hesters (Mrs Hester circled in yellow) and is in the process of getting up.
Weigman doesn't move from this spot. He doesn't approach Zapruder at all. Note - in the bottom left of this image we can see Hargis stood by a lamp post.



There is then a cut in the film and Weigman is suddenly down by the Newmans. Note - in this image we can see Hargis is now running across Elm Street towards his car.



In the Couch film we see the moment Weigman runs down the knoll from his spot on the steps filming the Hesters to his spot near the Newmans where he starts to film them. We should be able to see Zapruder and Sitzman in the Couch footage but the Stemmons sign is in the way.



In the image above Weigman is about half way along his run. Hargis is still at the lamp post and is about to start his run across Elm Street.


"The Wiegman Film was claimed to have been shot "continuously" for 30+ years following the assassination."

From my own viewing it seems that the opening shot of the Weigman film is a single shot up until the point he has finished filming the Hesters. The film then clearly cuts to the Newmans. There can be zero doubt there is a cut at this point so I'm not sure how there could be a claim that it was continuous.

[Royell Storing]

The Bell Film shows Wiegman running across the stairs/directly toward Zapruder.

The Bell film shows Weigman (circled in red) lying on the steps. He has just finished filming the Hesters (Mrs Hester circled in yellow) and is in the process of getting up.
Weigman doesn't move from this spot. He doesn't approach Zapruder at all. Note - in the bottom left of this image we can see Hargis stood by a lamp post.



There is then a cut in the film and Weigman is suddenly down by the Newmans. Note - in this image we can see Hargis is now running across Elm Street towards his car.



In the Couch film we see the moment Weigman runs down the knoll from his spot on the steps filming the Hesters to his spot near the Newmans where he starts to film them. We should be able to see Zapruder and Sitzman in the Couch footage but the Stemmons sign is in the way.



In the image above Weigman is about half way along his run. Hargis is still at the lamp post and is about to start his run across Elm Street.


"The Wiegman Film was claimed to have been shot "continuously" for 30+ years following the assassination."

From my own viewing it seems that the opening shot of the Weigman film is a single shot up until the point he has finished filming the Hesters. The film then clearly cuts to the Newmans. There can be zero doubt there is a cut at this point so I'm not sure how there could be a claim that it was continuous.

                                                                     - YOU TUBE -

                    "Raw Footage #1: The F.M. Bell film out-of-camera original"      by - The JFK Theorist  (1:19)

    The Bell Film still frame you have posted above is CROPPED.  Zapruder is visible on the (L), on an Uncropped Bell Film. Sitzman is also visible between the sprocket holes.
     I recommend you use the Bell Film I have listed above to help with your time stamping. "The JFK Theorist" posts extremely good copies of JFK assassination films on You Tube. He sometimes posts on this forum as "Alex Harris".
     Altgens gave WC Testimony that he initially followed law enforcement UP the knoll. When we see Altgens above, he has come back down the knoll and is now walking laterally L-R. Tick Tock, Tick Tock.
     

[Dan O'meara]

                                                                     - YOU TUBE -

                    "Raw Footage #1: The F.M. Bell film out-of-camera original"      by - The JFK Theorist  (1:19)

    The Bell Film still frame you have posted above is CROPPED.  Zapruder is visible on the (L), on an Uncropped Bell Film. Sitzman is also visible between the sprocket holes.
     I recommend you use the Bell Film I have listed above to help with your time stamping. "The JFK Theorist" posts extremely good copies of JFK assassination films on You Tube. He sometimes posts on this forum as "Alex Harris".
     Altgens gave WC Testimony that he initially followed law enforcement UP the knoll. When we see Altgens above, he has come back down the knoll and is now walking laterally L-R. Tick Tock, Tick Tock.
     

Firstly, this version of Bell is FAR superior to the one I was using and will be far more helpful, so thanks for that.
I'd like to go slowly to piece together my thinking here. The first thing I'd like to clear up is your comment in an earlier post that in the Bell film Weigman can be seen walking towards Zapruder. As far as I can tell this is not correct but I might be misunderstanding something so I'd like to clear it up. It's not a 'gotcha' or anything, just a genuine attempt to work this timeline out.

In the Bell film we see the limo enter the underpass followed by 3 cars. The camera then quickly pans to the right and shows us the GK area, where we see Zapruder and Sitzman making their way from the plinth and, as it pans across, Weigman in a prone position from where he was filming the Hesters:



This is the moment just before there is a cut/jump in the film.
We can see Weigman lying on the steps. He has just finished filming the Hesters (Mr Hester can be just about made out in the shadows of the pergola, Mrs Hester is getting up from her prone position). Weigman turns around and starts to get up. In the bottom left corner we can see Hargis stood by the lamp post.

The film then cuts/jumps to the scene below. There is no way to tell how much time has passed but a few things have changed - Altgens has appeared out of nowhere, Weigman is now filming the Newmans and Hargis is now running across the road:



Do you agree that the Bell film does NOT show Wegman walking towards Zapruder?
Do you agree there is no way to tell, just by watching the Bell film, how much time has passed between these two images because of the cut/jump?
Do you agree that Weigman has moved from his position filming the Hesters to his position filming the Newmans?

Again, no 'gotchas', just honest questions.

[Royell Storing]

Firstly, this version of Bell is FAR superior to the one I was using and will be far more helpful, so thanks for that.
I'd like to go slowly to piece together my thinking here. The first thing I'd like to clear up is your comment in an earlier post that in the Bell film Weigman can be seen walking towards Zapruder. As far as I can tell this is not correct but I might be misunderstanding something so I'd like to clear it up. It's not a 'gotcha' or anything, just a genuine attempt to work this timeline out.

In the Bell film we see the limo enter the underpass followed by 3 cars. The camera then quickly pans to the right and shows us the GK area, where we see Zapruder and Sitzman making their way from the plinth and, as it pans across, Weigman in a prone position from where he was filming the Hesters:



This is the moment just before there is a cut/jump in the film.
We can see Weigman lying on the steps. He has just finished filming the Hesters (Mr Hester can be just about made out in the shadows of the pergola, Mrs Hester is getting up from her prone position). Weigman turns around and starts to get up. In the bottom left corner we can see Hargis stood by the lamp post.

The film then cuts/jumps to the scene below. There is no way to tell how much time has passed but a few things have changed - Altgens has appeared out of nowhere, Weigman is now filming the Newmans and Hargis is now running across the road:



Do you agree that the Bell film does NOT show Wegman walking towards Zapruder?
Do you agree there is no way to tell, just by watching the Bell film, how much time has passed between these two images because of the cut/jump?
Do you agree that Weigman has moved from his position filming the Hesters to his position filming the Newmans?

Again, no 'gotchas', just honest questions.

                                                                          YOU TUBE

                  "Did The Umbrella Man Signal The Shot That Killed JFK?"    By - WW2 Mememto  (17:19)

            From 10:38 - 11:31  =  a panning sequence showing the Uncropped Bothun Photo. On the (L) it shows Motorcycle Officer Hargis riding away on his motorcycle. On the (R) it shows Motorcycle Officer Haygood just entering the photo. In between these 2 bookends, it shows the Newman family on the ground, Altgens walking DOWN the knoll toward Elm St, Wiegman filming Officer Haygood as he rides down Elm St, The Cuban and Umbrella Man sitting on the retaining wall, the Chism family beginning their sprint across the knoll, etc. This crystal clear image will assist you in your time stamping. Our Forum "photo gallery" also includes this Bothun Photo, but it is nowhere near as clear as this photo is displayed on YOU TUBE. And remember, the earlier a time stamp you apply to the Wiegman footage, the earlier you are also placing this Man walking down the sidewalk that runs from the Shelter to Elm St on the (E) side/TSBD side of the RL Thornton sign.
          The image of Wiegman running toward Zapruder is on the Bell Film BEFORE the still frame you posted.
          For the record, I do not believe that Wiegman was laying on the ground when he filmed the Hester's. Why would he lay down when filming? Do you know of any other time he laid down when filming that day? I also do Not believe that Wiegman ever climbed atop those steps. I believe Wiegman was Standing on the grass just in front of those steps when he filmed the Hester's. After filming the Hester's, Wiegman started moving (W) on the grass in the direction of Zapruder above and in front of him. What we are seeing on the Bell Film is Wiegman is FALLING. The Bell Film shows the Wiegman figure to be in the position of falling toward the ground. Who gets UP from the ground like we see Wiegman on the Bell Film? Nobody does. There are only 2 explanations for Wiegman's body position on the Bell Film still frame you posted. Either Wiegman is: (1) FALLING to the ground, (maybe he tripped?), or, (2) he is willfully DIVING to the ground. Wiegman did say he felt the "compression" of a bullet on his face during his segment on, "Unsolved History JFK, Death in Dealey Plaza" (2003).
          With respect to the Wiegman Film being deemed "filmed continuously" for 30 yrs, we really have no idea what was being viewed on the Wiegman Film during that time period. Dating back, on this Forum, there was a letter posted from Gary Mack directly addressing this "filmed continuously" issue. And remember, NBC has steadfastly REFUSED to release their Original Wiegman Film. Same goes for NBC and their Original Darnell Film.

                                                                      Your Questions

      (1) The Bell Film DOES SHOW Wiegman moving (W) toward Zapruder. Your posted Bell Film still frame is too late to show this.

      (2) As to estimating the time passage between the 2 images due to the "cut/jump", this is why I mentioned Wiegman being in the process of falling to the ground on the Bell Still Frame you posted. How long was Wiegman on the ground, before he got up and then ran down the Knoll to film the Newman Family? This is yet another variable that is Unknown.

     (3) Yes, I agree that Wiegman did move from filming the Hester's to filming the Newman's.

            That Uncropped Bothun Photo shows Officer Hargis riding away as we see Wiegman filming Officer Haygood entering the Bothun photo on the (R). Hargis gave WC Testimony that he left his motorcycle, crossed Elm St, went up to that "little wall", eyeballed the top of the Triple Underpass where he thought a shot came from,  moved to the light pole, eyeballed the TSBD, and then returned to his motorcycle on the other side of Elm St. How long do you believe it took Officer Hargis to do ALL of this? And, I thought we were seeing Officer Hargis still near his motorcycle on the early frames of the Wiegman Film that show the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass?

                                                           Thanks again for tackling this timeline issue.
                                 

     

[Dan O'meara]

                                                                          YOU TUBE

                  "Did The Umbrella Man Signal The Shot That Killed JFK?"    By - WW2 Mememto  (17:19)

            From 10:38 - 11:31  =  a panning sequence showing the Uncropped Bothun Photo. On the (L) it shows Motorcycle Officer Hargis riding away on his motorcycle. On the (R) it shows Motorcycle Officer Haygood just entering the photo. In between these 2 bookends, it shows the Newman family on the ground, Altgens walking DOWN the knoll toward Elm St, Wiegman filming Officer Haygood as he rides down Elm St, The Cuban and Umbrella Man sitting on the retaining wall, the Chism family beginning their sprint across the knoll, etc. This crystal clear image will assist you in your time stamping. Our Forum "photo gallery" also includes this Bothun Photo, but it is nowhere near as clear as this photo is displayed on YOU TUBE. And remember, the earlier a time stamp you apply to the Wiegman footage, the earlier you are also placing this Man walking down the sidewalk that runs from the Shelter to Elm St on the (E) side/TSBD side of the RL Thornton sign.
          The image of Wiegman running toward Zapruder is on the Bell Film BEFORE the still frame you posted.
          For the record, I do not believe that Wiegman was laying on the ground when he filmed the Hester's. Why would he lay down when filming? Do you know of any other time he laid down when filming that day? I also do Not believe that Wiegman ever climbed atop those steps. I believe Wiegman was Standing on the grass just in front of those steps when he filmed the Hester's. After filming the Hester's, Wiegman started moving (W) on the grass in the direction of Zapruder above and in front of him. What we are seeing on the Bell Film is Wiegman is FALLING. The Bell Film shows the Wiegman figure to be in the position of falling toward the ground. Who gets UP from the ground like we see Wiegman on the Bell Film? Nobody does. There are only 2 explanations for Wiegman's body position on the Bell Film still frame you posted. Either Wiegman is: (1) FALLING to the ground, (maybe he tripped?), or, (2) he is willfully DIVING to the ground. Wiegman did say he felt the "compression" of a bullet on his face during his segment on, "Unsolved History JFK, Death in Dealey Plaza" (2003).
          With respect to the Wiegman Film being deemed "filmed continuously" for 30 yrs, we really have no idea what was being viewed on the Wiegman Film during that time period. Dating back, on this Forum, there was a letter posted from Gary Mack directly addressing this "filmed continuously" issue. And remember, NBC has steadfastly REFUSED to release their Original Wiegman Film. Same goes for NBC and their Original Darnell Film.

                                                                      Your Questions

      (1) The Bell Film DOES SHOW Wiegman moving (W) toward Zapruder. Your posted Bell Film still frame is too late to show this.

      (2) As to estimating the time passage between the 2 images due to the "cut/jump", this is why I mentioned Wiegman being in the process of falling to the ground on the Bell Still Frame you posted. How long was Wiegman on the ground, before he got up and then ran down the Knoll to film the Newman Family? This is yet another variable that is Unknown.

     (3) Yes, I agree that Wiegman did move from filming the Hester's to filming the Newman's.

            That Uncropped Bothun Photo shows Officer Hargis riding away as we see Wiegman filming Officer Haygood entering the Bothun photo on the (R). Hargis gave WC Testimony that he left his motorcycle, crossed Elm St, went up to that "little wall", eyeballed the top of the Triple Underpass where he thought a shot came from,  moved to the light pole, eyeballed the TSBD, and then returned to his motorcycle on the other side of Elm St. How long do you believe it took Officer Hargis to do ALL of this? And, I thought we were seeing Officer Hargis still near his motorcycle on the early frames of the Wiegman Film that show the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass?

                                                           Thanks again for tackling this timeline issue.
                                 

   

The guy I've labelled Weigman in the Bell frames I posted is 100% Dave Weigman just after he has finished filming the Hesters. Below is a frame from Weigman's footage.The first thing to notice is how low down this shot is taken from. He is virtually on the same level as the grass. At the bottom of the frame is the concrete of the steps he is laying on.
Further proof it is Weigman is the angle of the shot in respect to the concrete pergola. The pergola structure has six columns at the front. At the time of the shooting the outward faces of two of the columns were in darkness and four of them in sunlight. In the Weigman frame below, the outward face of column A is in darkness and column B in light. Mrs Hesters head is in direct alignment with column A.



In the frame from Bell below I have labelled the same columns A and B. When we draw a line from Weigman to column A it passes through Mrs Hesters head. It is exactly the correct alignment.



I have proven that the figure in Bell is Weigman.
I have proven it with photographic evidence that cannot be disputed.
Can you post the timestamp from the Bell film you pointed me towards (JFK Theorist version) so I can see who you believe Weigman is because there is no-one running towards Zapruder in the Bell film and I can't figure out what you mean.

[Royell Storing]

The guy I've labelled Weigman in the Bell frames I posted is 100% Dave Weigman just after he has finished filming the Hesters. Below is a frame from Weigman's footage.The first thing to notice is how low down this shot is taken from. He is virtually on the same level as the grass. At the bottom of the frame is the concrete of the steps he is laying on.
Further proof it is Weigman is the angle of the shot in respect to the concrete pergola. The pergola structure has six columns at the front. At the time of the shooting the outward faces of two of the columns were in darkness and four of them in sunlight. In the Weigman frame below, the outward face of column A is in darkness and column B in light. Mrs Hesters head is in direct alignment with column A.



In the frame from Bell below I have labelled the same columns A and B. When we draw a line from Weigman to column A it passes through Mrs Hesters head. It is exactly the correct alignment.



I have proven that the figure in Bell is Weigman.
I have proven it with photographic evidence that cannot be disputed.
Can you post the timestamp from the Bell film you pointed me towards (JFK Theorist version) so I can see who you believe Weigman is because there is no-one running towards Zapruder in the Bell film and I can't figure out what you mean.

         For future Wiegman ID'ing purposes, the Telltale article that sets Wiegman apart from ALL the other Photog's is his HAT. Of the photog's that jumped out of their camera cars and ran to the Knoll, Wiegman is the only one wearing a hat.
         I agree that the figure we are discussing is Wiegman. In the Bell still frame that you posted, I see Wiegman positioned on the knoll grass. (He is Not physically on any of the Steps in the Bell still frame that you posted). Wiegman is facing/moving (W) toward the short wall that runs down from the Zapruder Perch. Why he was moving (W) across the Knoll, I do Not know. I believe this Bell still frame shows Wiegman to be stumbling/falling, maybe diving to the ground. The angle of Wiegman's body/arm(s) tells me this. Nobody gets up from the ground with their body in the position we see on this Bell still frame. Wiegman is Falling to the ground. I believe that Wiegman filmed the Hester's while Standing on the Knoll Grass. He was Not laying down across any of the steps between him and the Hesters. He was Not laying down on the grass. Wiegman was filming the Hesters while in a standing position on the Knoll grass. This placed him Lower than the Hesters.   

[Dan O'meara]

         For future Wiegman ID'ing purposes, the Telltale article that sets Wiegman apart from ALL the other Photog's is his HAT. Of the photog's that jumped out of their camera cars and ran to the Knoll, Wiegman is the only one wearing a hat.
         I agree that the figure we are discussing is Wiegman. In the Bell still frame that you posted, I see Wiegman positioned on the knoll grass. (He is Not physically on any of the Steps in the Bell still frame that you posted). Wiegman is facing/moving (W) toward the short wall that runs down from the Zapruder Perch. Why he was moving (W) across the Knoll, I do Not know. I believe this Bell still frame shows Wiegman to be stumbling/falling, maybe diving to the ground. The angle of Wiegman's body/arm(s) tells me this. Nobody gets up from the ground with their body in the position we see on this Bell still frame. Wiegman is Falling to the ground. I believe that Wiegman filmed the Hester's while Standing on the Knoll Grass. He was Not laying down across any of the steps between him and the Hesters. He was Not laying down on the grass. Wiegman was filming the Hesters while in a standing position on the Knoll grass. This placed him Lower than the Hesters.

Just so I've got this right in my mind - you've abandoned your claim that the Bell film shows Weigman running towards Zapruder. You now agree with my identification of Weigman in the Bell film. You don't believe the Bell film shows the position from which Weigman filmed the Hesters.
Am I correct so far?