Ultra-Liberal CTers Are Outraged Over New Book on JFK and Vietnam

[Benjamin Cole]

Much agreed.

[Benjamin Cole]

Much agreed.

Beyond that, I strongly suspect even if JFK had reduced the number of boots on the ground sometime after 1964, he still had other means to help SV, such as naval blockades, air wars, war materiel, money assistance, signals and other intel, diplomatic pressure and so on.

JFK was instrumental to the founding of SV (more so than any other American), and believed deeply in thwarting communism. He wasn't just going waltz away from SV.

James Douglass' book is just fantasy.

The ideology writes the agenda, and the agenda writes the narrative.

[Michael T. Griffith]

I posted a couple times at EF-JFKA how JFK authorized the anti-Diem coup, despite being told it would likely result in the Diems' assassinations, and the complete lack of Kennedy Administration efforts to extract the Diems. Indeed, CIA inquiries about extracting the Diems were ignored---Lodge appeared to not want a government-in-exile situation, preferring the Diems dead.

There is a recorded conversation between Ambassador Lodge and JFK, in which Lodge lays this out, and many other warnings.

JFK responds, in part, by calling Madame Nhu a "bitch" and a lesbian (she appears to have been heterosexual).

The tapes and documentation indicate that while the Kennedy administration did not explicitly order an execution, Washington officials and JFK were well aware that a military coup could result in the assassination of Diệm and his brother.

There were different standards at play in 1963, and JFK tried to have Castro assassinated several times, and  authorized the Diems' assassinations. That is part of the historical record.

People forget that JFK was deeply instrumental to the founding of South Vietnam, and he committed 16,000 military personnel to SV to help it survive against communist terrorism---and JFK himself called it terrorism. Cardinal Spellman was an influential figure as well, and close to the Kennedy family.

JFK may have wanted to modestly reduce US presence in SV in late 1963, but he was not going to abandon SV.

To be fair, the record shows that JFK did not want Diem killed, and that he was stunned and dismayed when he learned of Diem's murder.

JFK's authorization of the coup was one of the worst mistakes of his presidency and proved to be disastrous for the war effort, which had been going well from mid-1962 until the day the coup was launched (as we know from released North Vietnamese sources). The North Vietnamese could not believe that the Americans had been so foolish as to allow Diem to be overthrown. The Communists rightly viewed Diem's removal as a huge gift to the Communist cause in South Vietnam. 

As bad as JFK's decision to authorize the anti-Diem coup was, his decision to approve Averell Harriman's ridiculous, fatally flawed "neutrality" deal for a coalition government in Laos in 1962 was arguably even worse. Eisenhower correctly warned JFK that Laos was the most crucial battleground in Southeast Asia. Eisenhower even told JFK he should deploy U.S. troops to secure Laos, since Laos was the key gateway for Communist supplies going into South Vietnam.

The North Vietnamese ignored Harriman's deal from the get-go and never withdrew their troops from Laos, just as Ambassador Nolting and General Harkins warned Harriman would happen. Thanks to Harriman's pathetic deal, the North Vietnamese were able to expand the Ho Chi Minh Trail through Laos, enabling them to increase the flow of supplies to the Viet Cong in South Vietnam (and later to North Vietnamese forces in South Vietnam). In fact, U.S. military personnel in South Vietnam began referring to the Ho Chi Minh Trail as the Averell Harriman Memorial Highway.     

[Steve M. Galbraith]

A good summary snippet (granted it covers a lot of ground) about Maxwell Taylor, JFK and Vietnam (taken from Maxwell Taylor’s Cold War: From Berlin to Vietnam by Ingo Trauschweizer)



I don't see how JFK could campaign on defending South Vietnam, make public and campaign speeches about the importance for US security that the South not fall, endorse the overthrow of Diem which, among other things, deepened US moral commitment to Saigon and then after the election turn around and repudiate what he said and walk away from the conflict. How could that be do-able? Moreover as we know once the South fell all of the region then followed. JFK told Cronkite right before the assassination that he believed in the "domino theory." So Saigon falls, Laos falls, Cambodia falls. JFK said all of that was going to happen. And he allows it? JFK responds, as Taylor says, as a "voluntary loser"?

[Benjamin Cole]

You should read some of Ken Hughes work on the Diem assassinations. Or mine.

Nobody in the JFK Administration made any effort to extract the Diems from SV, in fact some CIA'ers said State Dep't wanted the Diems dead; they did not want a government in exile.

The CIA man attached to Diem said he asked for an airplane to get the Diems out, and was refused, despite the US operating the airbase at Danang.

1963 was a different time and place. JFK was also trying to assassinate Castro.

[Benjamin Cole]

One of the miracles of the internet, is that you can do your own primary research, and reasonably draw your own deductions. 

Listen to this recording between Victor Krulak and Harrison Livingston, author of High Treason: The Assassination of JFK and the Case for Conspiracy.  Judging from context, this conversation took place in 1999 or 2000.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hEaZa6oRjS4tupU5898auNPXrn7y2s4M/view

Local hero Michael Griffith has posted the above recording of  Krulak, major general in the US Marine Corps, a prominent and key figure in the Kennedy Administration's deepening involvement in SV.

Krulak is regarded as non-CIA.

(Another local hero, Robert Morrow, has said Krulak has identified Ed Lansdale as being in DP 11/22, based on the "tramps" photo, which purportedly shows the back of Lansdale's head. This issue is somewhat addressed in the above recording, but is not the topic of this thread.)

Background on the Diem brothers: Ngô Đình Diệm was the final prime minister of the State of Vietnam (1954–1955) and later the first president of South Vietnam from 1955 until his capture and assassination during the Kennedy Administration-backed Nov. 2 Big Minh coup d'état.

Ngô Đình Nhu was President Diem's brother, regarded as a power behind the throne, also butchered and assassinated that day with Diem. Nhu was married to Madame Nhu, aka "The Dragon Lady," who is worth a whole thread of her own.

Various narratives have emerged over the years of President Kennedy's pre-knowledge of the pending coup (one of the worst-kept secrets in coup history). Kennedy himself voiced concern for the safety of the Diems (and he was repeatedly warned the coup would likely be fatal to the Diems), but he voiced also resignation to their fates, and the Kennedy Administration public face and policy was to take no role in the coup or its mechanics (although Lucien Conien, a CIA'er working directly for Ambassador Lodge, provided $65,000 to Big Minh just before the coup).

In my research of documents, I can find no firm statement from JFK that the Diems must be extracted first, if a coup is to be supported, or merely abided by Washington (meaning de facto support of the coup, given US involvement in SV).

It is fair to say Ambassador Lodge supported the coup, and perhaps even instigated it, and was no mere Ambassador, but was acting more like a pro consul in ancient Rome---calling the shots on a Roman-controlled territory). 

In the above recording, Krulak said he was unaware of any plans or planes to extricate the Diems from SV, before or during the Big Minh coup.

"I am reflecting back on the period of time it became evident the Diems were not going to make it," said Krulak. "But I don't recall any plan to fly them out." 

Krulak said he doubted a story that the Diems had been driven the Saigon airport, put on a plane, but refused to leave.

Krulak said he was Fletcher Prouty superior, and regards Prouty highly.

Krulak also said Lansdale was "mysterious."

The possibility of a blowback from the Diem assassinations leading to the JFKA remains an interesting and plausible explanation for 11/22.

Those taking umbrage at the Diem assassinations might have drawn their own conclusions as to who was ultimately responsible.

Madame Nhu, on Nov. 2 in the US while her husband and brother-in-law were assassinated, all but vowed revenge.

Less than three weeks after the Diems were murdered, JFK was assassinated.

Fascinating side note: Evidently Madame Nhu was in Texas in late-October. early November 1963. She wowed them at UT-Austin, and attended a party hosted by Houston oil millionaires, according to the Nov. 1 issue of the Texas Observer, a liberal publication.

Screen-Shot-2568-06-04-at-08-23-23.png

 

https://issues.texasobserver.org/pdf/ustxtxb_obs_1963_11_01_issue.pdf

 

Anyone who doubts the resolve of Madame Nhu might want to consider this:

"To win support for Diệm, Madame Nhu hit upon the idea of enlisting support from the million or so refugees from North Vietnam, many of them Catholics who fled to the south after the Geneva accords had partitioned Vietnam, organizing them for a massive pro-Diệm demonstration on 21 September 1954.[25] The rally in Saigon led to a confrontation on the streets between Madame Nhu and Bình Xuyên gunmen, with Madame Nhu daring the thugs to kill her right then and there, which caused them to demur, and the rally went on.[26]"

 

[Benjamin Cole]

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/intelligence-vietnam/2025-05-22/house-divided-washington-langley-saigon-and-plot