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Author Topic: William Bruce Pitzer: Not exactly a busted factoid  (Read 1017 times)

Offline Lance Payette

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Re: William Bruce Pitzer: Not exactly a busted factoid
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 01:02:53 PM »
Greg Doudna, who seems to have moved on from here (I suppose the abuse he gets at the Ed Forum does have a certain perverse attraction), said kind of a wise thing at the Ed Forum yesterday:

The problem with sticking to mistaken beliefs—such as the continuing belief that Clay Shaw tried to hire a Marcello attorney in New Orleans (Dean Andrews) to defend Oswald in Dallas (based on WHAT reliable evidence?—think about it)—is: mistaken beliefs like that function to block out and prevent one from being open to actual true solutions.

It is just glaringly obvious—and was corroborated by the leading criminal defense attorney in New Orleans at the time—that the hire of Dean Andrews to represent Oswald was from Marguerite Oswald in Dallas via intermediaries.

Yet this has taken so little traction, and it’s the year 2026, over six decades later and people are still talking Clay Shaw on that, and STILL hardly anyone is talking Marguerite Oswald when that is what it was.

And for every substantive response to the argument in my paper on the source of Dean Andrews’ hire, there seem to be three from persons who haven’t read it enough to understand it or haven’t at all, as if everything has to be threat-attack. It’s not a recipe for advancing in understanding.


This applies in spades, of course, to what MTG has done here. He is wedded to his little Pitzer narrative that is SO outdated, SO demonstrably wrong, that all he can do is generate yet another knee-jerk response without even considering a different perspective. So many people are stuck in their own little JFKA time warps that the discussions are like a bunch of old vinyl 45s being played over and over. Yep, a JFKA forum is its very own oldies station!  :D ("And, now, hipsters, yet another blast from the past, right here on JFKA FM, your goldmine of golden oldies. Yes, kids, crank up the volume because it's Michael G and the Conspiracy Loons with 'My Baby Killed Pitzer.'")
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 01:04:02 PM by Lance Payette »

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Re: William Bruce Pitzer: Not exactly a busted factoid
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 01:02:53 PM »


Online Michael T. Griffith

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Re: William Bruce Pitzer: Not exactly a busted factoid
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 03:06:03 PM »
-- Pitzer was just about to retire and had a good job lined up. He had no conceivable motive to kill himself.

This, no doubt is a reference to Dennis David's claim that Pitzer had accepted a very lucrative position with a TV network in NYC. However, this is not true. Pitzer's family reported that he had accepted a teaching position at a local community college.

-- Pitzer's right hand tested negative for GSR/nitrates, indicating he had not fired a revolver.

The palmar side of Pitzer's left hand was covered in gunshot residue. This is explained by the left hand being used to steady the gun by wrapping it over the top of the cylinder. The palm side catches the GSR emerging from the cylinder gap. If the muzzle is held against the skin (more about this later), then the gunpowder residue follows the bullet into the wound. Put together, these two factors prevent GSR from reaching the firing hand. BTW, using the non dominant hand to steady a pistol in such a way is more common that you might think.

-- The FBI's own paraffin test in this case indicated the revolver was held some 3 feet away from Pitzer's head when it was fired.

This is a misrepresentation of the evidence. There was a muzzle imprint on the skin at the wound site, which proves that the muzzle of the pistol was held against the skin when the weapon was fired. The soot, residue, and combustion gasses would not have been able to scatter across the surface of the body, as it would in a near-distance shot. Instead, the residue and soot would have followed the bullet into body through the wound the bullet was creating, and there would be no powder tattooing around the entry wound.

-- The FBI was unable to find any evidence that Pitzer had acquired ammo for the revolver that was signed out from the security office in his name.

So what? In those days, .38 Special was the most common cartridge used in the US, with the exception of .22LR. He could have obtained it anywhere, paid cash, and no one would have remembered him buying it. This is just another attempt to argue by insinuation.

-- A heel print found near Pitzer's body was not from the shoes Pitzer was wearing.

Which easily could have been from a first responder or an investigator.

-- Pitzer's family said he had been repeatedly threatened to keep quiet about his knowledge of the JFK autopsy.

Eaglesham and Palmer talked with Pitzer's family as well as friends and co-workers. I don't recall him reporting any of them saying such a thing. Did this really happen, then?

You haven't read Belzer and Wayne's chapter on the Pitzer case, have you?

Yes, Pitzer had been accepted for an associate professor position at a local college. Most people would consider that to be a good job, a very good job. Between his teaching salary and his Navy retirement pay, Pitzer would have been quite comfortable. So, why would he have suddenly shot himself? I notice you provided no motive for his alleged suicide.

So Pitzer supposedly used his left hand "to steady the gun by wrapping it over the top of the cylinder"? Oh, please. Give me a break. Why would he not have simply held the revolver in his right hand, put up against his head, and pulled the trigger? That's how suicidal people usually shoot themselves in the head. But, nah, you've got Pitzer "wrapping" his left hand "over the top of the cylinder" so you can explain the paraffin test results (no GSR on either side of his right hand).

Yes, the heel print could have been from a first responder, but we don't know whose print it was because the FBI did not bother to check it. The FBI could have easily checked the shoes of the first responders to determine if one of them made the heel print, but they didn't.

No, I did not misrepresent the distance of the shot per the FBI report. It said, "the revolver must have been held at a distance of more than 3 ft when discharged."

I notice you snipped and ignored the fact that Pitzer wrote himself a note to remind him to return the revolver that he had signed out. Humm, now that's hardly what you'd expect from a guy who planned on using the revolver to shoot himself.

Regarding the FBI's failure to find any evidence that Pitzer had obtained ammo for the revolver, you say, "he could have obtained it anywhere, paid cash, and no one would have remembered him buying it." So when the FBI showed a photo of Pitzer to local gun shops and asked if he had bought ammo, no would have recognized him, even though he would have bought the ammo fairly recently? Yeah, of course.

And why in the devil would he have bought the ammo himself when he could have checked out ammo from the security office when he signed out the revolver? 

Pitzer's family and friends rejected the suicide story. They noted that Pitzer was mentally and emotionally tough and not the kind of person to let problems get him down.

Pitzer was literally just a few days away from retiring from the Navy. And, again, he had a good job lined up. His family said he was "very cheerful" that morning.

Pitzer's wife reported that Navy officials threatened her with the loss of her husband's Navy pension if she didn't accept the suicide verdict and "keep her mouth shut."

You question whether Pitzer was ever warned to keep quiet about his knowledge of the JFK autopsy, yet even Heiner admits this happened.

It's just sad that you folks would desecrate a man's life by claiming he killed himself when the evidence indicates he did not -- and all because you can't bring yourselves to admit there was an organized campaign to kill certain JFKA witnesses, even though a decorated Army Special Forces officer reported that a CIA man approached him about killing Pitzer.


Offline Lance Payette

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Re: William Bruce Pitzer: Not exactly a busted factoid
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 04:26:04 PM »
Pitzer's wife reported that Navy officials threatened her with the loss of her husband's Navy pension if she didn't accept the suicide verdict and "keep her mouth shut."
Pure BS. She told Dangerous Dan in a phone conversation that the Navy investigators of Pitzer's death had told her not to talk about it, period. She said she knew that those who had been at the autopsy (which did not include Pitzer) had been sworn to secrecy. She said she was 80 years old, that the Navy had treated her very well, and she was concerned about inadvertently saying something that might jeopardize her pension.

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You question whether Pitzer was ever warned to keep quiet about his knowledge of the JFK autopsy, yet even Heiner admits this happened.
Heiner says nothing like this. It appears that you're channeling Penn Jones' nonsense, which Heiner reports as uncorroborated nonsense. You apparently skimmed Heiner's e-book and didn't realize what you were reading,

I quote Heiner: "Penn Jones relayed the inaccurate information from the News-Sun and apparently added more of his own, declaring that 'Lt.' Pitzer called his experience of debriefings after JFK's autopsy 'horrifying' and that he told to be silent for national security reasons. Whether Jones had a source for any of this additional information or merely invented it is unclear. It is not implausible that he and Peterson may have shared notes, as Peterson's 'list' was almost certainly in reference to Jones' work. It seems doubtful that Jones did any research of his own in this matter; had he even looked up Pitzer's obituaries, he would have been obliged to give his correct rank as 'Lt. Cmdr.'

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Yes, the heel print could have been from a first responder, but we don't know whose print it was because the FBI did not bother to check it. The FBI could have easily checked the shoes of the first responders to determine if one of them made the heel print, but they didn't.
Wrong again, sweetie. From Heiner's book: "A partial heel print from a man’s shoe was noted on one of the four notes (Item 9) submitted by the NIS [Naval Investigative Service]. It was photographed and retained in records for future reference, but the [FBI] lab noted that 'due to the limited detail in this print, it is unlikely that it can be definitely associated with a particular heel.'"
« Last Edit: Today at 01:17:45 AM by Lance Payette »

Offline Lance Payette

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Re: William Bruce Pitzer: Not exactly a busted factoid
« Reply #31 on: Today at 01:27:43 AM »
In going back through Heiner's book, his speculation is basically the same as mine. Like me, he doesn't insist that this is the answer.

His theory is that Pitzer may have participated in a pre-autopsy manipulation of the body at Walter Reed and that the films and photos seen by Dennis David may have been taken by Pitzer at Walter Reed. Hence, Pitzer may have had more reason to be concerned about Lifton's conversation with Liebeler and the Kennedy family's release of the autopsy materials than I have suggested.

Who knows? I always remember a psychologist who specialized in suicide counseling saying, "People don't commit suicide because they're diagnosed with cancer, their spouses die or their houses burn down. They commit suicide because their shoelaces break." So some little incident we can't even imagine may have been the last straw for Pitzer.

Online Brian Doyle

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William Bruce Pitzer: Not exactly a busted factoid
« Reply #32 on: Today at 01:19:07 PM »

Pitzer either filmed the covert pre-autopsy in person or filmed it using remote camera equipment he installed in one of the autopsy rooms at Bethesda...

Typical of the JFK research community, Dennis David was alive for years and should have been asked if Pitzer set up remote filming equipment and possibly captured the covert autopsy on film...The slides David witnessed bespeak Pitzer accidentally filming the alteration of the original wounds in that covert autopsy room...Of course, even though Dennis David could have provided incredibly important information on this, the pompous egotists who are the main researchers never bothered to go find out from David and solve one of the most revealing aspects of the case...


Online Michael T. Griffith

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Re: William Bruce Pitzer: Not exactly a busted factoid
« Reply #33 on: Today at 02:36:46 PM »
The clincher for me was watching Lt. Col. (Ret.) Dan Marvin's interview for the documentary The Men Who Killed Kennedy. Ted Yacucci includes this segment in his video on the Pitzer case, The Murder of Naval Commander William Pitzer. The segment is broken into two parts: the first part starts at 12:42 and ends at 15:40, and the second part runs from 18:17 to the end of the video (22:06). (From 15:41 to 18:16 there is part of an interview with Dennis David about Pitzer.)

Marvin comes across as sincere, well spoken, educated, and serious. I was especially impressed with his emotional expression of concern over what his family would think of him after he revealed his previous role as a military assassin and his expression of hope that his disclosure would be helpful to the nation. I find him to be an entirely credible witness.

I don't think any honest, objective person could watch Marvin's interview and come away believing he was "one of the worst of the hoaxers/crackpots." He was nothing of the kind. Nigel Turner's investigators verified Marvin's service, verified his stationing on Fort Bragg at the time he said he was approached by the CIA officer about killing Pitzer, and verified that there was a Captain David Vanek assigned to his unit at the time.

For an in-depth online review of the Pitzer case, I recommend Jeff Crudele's video The Mystery of William Bruce Pitzer And An Interview with his Nephew Bruce Fernandez. Much of the video is an interview with Pitzer's nephew Bruce Fernandez. Crudele displays the FBI document on Pitzer's death so you can see the source for yourself.


Online Brian Doyle

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William Bruce Pitzer: Not exactly a busted factoid
« Reply #34 on: Today at 03:11:01 PM »


Because of the general dysfunction of the research community Pitzer was not explored as deeply as he should have been...

I'm convinced Pitzer's witnessing was one of the more bizarre coincidences of the assassination and that he accidentally filmed the covert pre-autopsy and alteration of the wounds thinking he was filming the official autopsy...If Dennis David had seen Pitzer's raw footage he probably would have realized Pitzer captured the criminal alteration of the wounds on film...To make truth even stranger than fiction, Pitzer may have not realized he filmed the illegal alteration of the wounds and may have thought he was filming the main autopsy...Or he may have realized later on what he filmed and that is what led to his enthusiasm of showing it on film...It may explain Pitzer's enthusiasm that caused him to go drag Dennis David out of the hallway and in to his office to show him...This needed to be said to Dennis David directly to get his opinion on whether that was what he witnessed...You can see the imperative by CIA to get rid of Pitzer, considering...He caught them red-handed...

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William Bruce Pitzer: Not exactly a busted factoid
« Reply #34 on: Today at 03:11:01 PM »