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Author Topic: Which Six Books Would You Recommend to a Newcomer?  (Read 143 times)

Online Jarrett Smith

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Re: Which Six Books Would You Recommend to a Newcomer?
« Reply #7 on: Today at 12:31:13 AM »
Six Seconds in Dallas
Last Second in Dallas
JFK: Absolute Proof
No More Silence
Mafia Kingfish: Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy
The Plot to Kill the President

Online Lance Payette

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Re: Which Six Books Would You Recommend to a Newcomer?
« Reply #8 on: Today at 12:52:45 AM »
I wonder if you realize how extreme and biased you make yourself look with this kind of polemic.

Pretty dadgum extreme and biased. YEE-HAA!

Quote
You couldn't even list six books, but only five.

That's because I was quoting a post from 2018. Here ya go: Walden by Henry David Thoreau. Happy now?

Quote
Then, you just had to get on your soapbox and repeat your talking point that everyone who disagrees with you has a "conspiracy-prone mindset." In other replies, you've stated that those who disagree with you have warped minds, faulty neural pathways, and even a form of mental illness. In one reply, you said Greg Doudna was part of the "lunatic fringe." In another reply, you said that Dr. David Mantik sees things that no one else sees.

Not everyone, sweetie, but indeed some we could name.  ::) I'm sure Greg is an intelligent and hardworking guy who is kind to stray dogs, but in my opinion his ideas on virtually every issue are indeed lunatic fringe stuff. YMMV, and I'll bet it does.

The fact is, as I have pointed out repeatedly, there is now a VAST body of psychological and sociological literature concerning the conspiracy-prone mindset. Your continued umbrage might seem to many as though you were protesting just a wee bit too much.

Familiarity with this literature would be exceedingly helpful to a newbie in attempting to separate the wheat (e.g., Larry Hancock) from the chaff (i.e., you) in the CT literature.

Quote
And notice the difference between the balance in my list and the lop-sided nature of your list. You list a very old book (Epstein) that questions the Warren Commission but posits a conspiracy theory that virtually no one believes anymore, and you list a book on Oswald in Russia (Titovets) written in 2021 by a guy who knew Oswald during his few years in Russia from October 1959 to June 1962. I would have been hard pressed to think of two weaker pro-conspiracy books. Your three pro-LN books are not terrible--I can think of several that are worse--but two of the authors had rather weak credentials to be writing about the JFK case, and it shows in their books (McMillan and Davison).

In my list, I included a recent and robust scholarly defense of the Warren Report, an exposition on the mortal-error theory (which disagrees with both the lone-gunman view and the conspiracy view), a book that focuses on the nature of the shooting and goes no further than to argue for multiple shooters without speculating on suspects), a book on the historic ARRB disclosures written by a former senior ARRB analyst, a book on the forensic and ballistics evidence written by a radiation oncologist and physicist who's also licensed in radiology, and a book on the evidence of Mafia involvement written by an award-winning investigative journalist.

I will concede: you are as fair and balanced as FOX News.  ::)

What you fail to grasp is that I am talking about methodology for a newbie. My suggestion would be for a newbie, BEFORE he (or she) dives into substantive JFKA materials, to (1) familiarize himself with the literature concerning the conspiracy-prone mindset, and (2) thoroughly acquaint himself with Oswald the actual man, not the fictional Most Interesting Man Who Ever Lived of much CT literature or the cardboard cutout who is plugged into many conspiracy theories only because "we gotta do something with him."

Online Tom Scully

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Re: Which Six Books Would You Recommend to a Newcomer?
« Reply #9 on: Today at 01:24:26 AM »
Hmmm ... when you said you "completely disagree with almost all of my posts" I wondered if you might have me confused with someone else. My posts are so all over the map, LN-wise and CT-wise, that it would be difficult to strongly disagree with almost all of them.

Now I wonder if you have Jean Davison confused with someone else. I did both Google and Ed Forum searches and could not find anything substantiating what you describe as her views about RFK and Dulles.

In fact, the only thing I really found was a post by you on this very forum from 2023 in which you quoted a post by Jean in the comments section at JFK Facts as follows:

JEAN DAVISON
APRIL 5, 2016 AT 11:17 PM
“Anyone who actually believes that the Kennedy’s and Dulles held each other in high regard is mortally naïve or utterly disingenuous.”


Lance, please accept my sincere apology. I'm aware my vision deteriorated but I've thought that my mind and memory have not also noticeably degraded.
I try to allow for the expectation that the person exhibiting such symptoms is always the last to know. I don't know how my post ended up worded that way.
I was pleased to log in here yesterday and find that you had decided to participate here. I intended my post to read that I disagreed with most of what I quoted
from your post, certainly not with almost everything you post generally.

Anyway, I believe Jean Davis was quoting what I posted about the post JFKA relations between Dulles and since I remain confident I accurately recall her opinion
and took the counter argument of hers. Her opinion had taken me quite by surprise,

Quote
https://web.archive.org/web/20181226165123/https://jfkfacts.org/devils-chessboard-today/#comment-867706#comment-867706
(Scroll down....)
Jean Davison
April 5, 2016 at 11:17 pm
“Anyone who actually believes that the Kennedy’s and Dulles held each other in high regard is mortally naïve or utterly disingenuous.”

QUOTE:

“Allen Dulles handled himself awfully well, with a great deal of dignity,” Robert Kennedy said of the period after the Bay of Pigs, “and never tried to shift the blame. The President was very fond of him, as I was.”

UNQUOTE
–Schlesinger, “Robert Kennedy and His Times, p. 459

https://books.google.com/books?id=5L-EeG9djO4C&pg=PA459&lpg=PA459&dq=dulles+%22handled+himself+awfully+well%22+dignity&source=bl&ots=_I7BoSypjI&sig=tZ9sHF_C6D8E2dgWeXBdHwj9-iE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1id-e3PfLAhVB72MKHYNUBfwQ6AEIJjAC#v=onepage&q=dulles%20%22handled%20himself%20awfully%20well%22%20dignity&f=false

According to several writers, following the Bay of Pigs, Kennedy told Dulles, “Under a parliamentary system of government, it is I who would be leaving. But under our system, it is you who must go.”

http://www.newsweek.com/bay-pigs-newly-revealed-cia-documents-expose-blunders-67275

Tom S.
April 6, 2016 at 12:14 am
Jean,
You have not convinced me that even you believe JFK held Dulles in high regard, or that he was fond of Dulles.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vf9ZJx8WkjQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Legacy+of+Ashes%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrt8X0j_nLAhWK2SYKHQw0CqkQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=sexual%20dalliances&f=false



Photon
April 6, 2016 at 6:53 am
How did Kennedy not know that Eisenhower didn’t approve an invasion of Cuba? It didn’t happen while he was in office. He could not have given an order to do so when he was no longer Commander in Chief. It is really a pointless statement attempting to divert a President’s responsibility to know the facts before making a decision to somebody else.
It leads me to question the veracity of the author.

Jean Davison
April 6, 2016 at 10:48 am
Tom,

Who do you think is lying, Schlesinger or RFK?

If there’s evidence that the Kennedys didn’t hold the opinion about Dulles expressed in that quote, what is it? I’m certainly open to believing it, if you can show me.

The author you quoted didn’t present any evidence that I see when he made the claim about what Joe Kennedy supposedly told his son. Is there any?

I’m not naïve enough to accept any writer’s assertion as fact without seeing what it’s based on.

Tom S.
April 6, 2016 at 2:01 pm
Jean,
You have a conflict of interests. You want to keep your book relevant. You cannot have certain details be of
any consequence, just as DiEugenio cannot have the relatives of Garrison’s wife being the principle named CIA saboteurs of Garrison and his investigation, matter in the least. For both of you authors, your reactions are reflexive and quite understandable. It is reasonable not to accept what you keep defending,
warm relations and mutual admiration between Allen Dulles and the Kennedy brothers.

https://books.google.com/books?id=KUX-Dk6esuUC&dq=editions%3AISBN0517098644&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=stripped+retirement


BTW, I think the more we actually know, the more we have to take what we think we know with a grain of salt. We have to embrace less, admitting to ourselves that it is all quite complicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsaneh_Mashayekhi_Beschloss#Education
….Current activities

Beschloss is chairman of the Investment Committee of the Ford Foundation and is on the Investment Committee of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. She is a member of the board of trustees of the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, the Ford Foundation, and the Urban Institute.[5] She advises international pension funds and central banks and has written a number of journal articles and books.
Personal life
Beschloss is married to presidential historian Michael Beschloss.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/01/31/its-father-versus-son-as-morris-beschloss-declares-george-soros-the-most-dangerous-man-in-america/
It’s Father Versus Son as Morris Beschloss Declares George Soros ‘The Most Dangerous Man in America’
…..Afsaneh and Michael Beschloss

We then began to talk about the self-designated, progressive “media watchdog group” Media Matters for America. Michael Beschloss (the son) is married to Iranian born Afsaneh Mashayekhi Beschloss. She has well-documented, strong ties to Democrats and George Soros-backed groups, including Media Matters….

Willy Whitten
April 6, 2016 at 1:43 pm
Again Jean, nobody has to be lying when it comes to the decorum of statesmanlike speech. It is political language Jean, empty of true meaning, just as Orwell stated.

What was Bobby going to say to an author who was likely to publish his answers: “Allen Dulles was a no good S.O.B. and me and John hated that bastard!”?

Guys like Trump, who might be expected to say something like that, didn’t come along until half a century later.
\\][//

Jean Davison
April 6, 2016 at 5:48 pm
“You have a conflict of interests. You want to keep your book relevant. You cannot have certain details be of
any consequence…”

That’s BS, Tom. I don’t give a flip about “keeping my book relevant.” That’s a fantasy you’re projecting onto me.

I’ve been posting in JFK forums ever since Prodigy years ago, when I was delighted to find a group of people who knew what CE399 was, even though most of them didn’t agree with me. I have NEVER brought up the subject of my book on any public forum, not ever. If I say things similar to what I wrote back then it’s because that’s what I believed then and still believe.

I take it from this personal attack that the author you quoted provided no evidence to support his claim about why JFK appointed Dulles.

I don’t care whether the Kennedys hated Dulles or not. I just want to see the evidence for it.

Jean Davison
April 7, 2016 at 11:28 pm
Sorry, I forgot the link. Please post this instead.
———————-

“Again Jean, nobody has to be lying when it comes to the decorum of statesmanlike speech….What was Bobby going to say to an author who was likely to publish his answers: “Allen Dulles was a no good S.O.B. and me and John hated that bastard!”?

Well, Willy, here’s RFK’s reported opinion of J. Edgar Hoover from the same book.

QUOTE:

…Anthony Lewis asked Robert Kennedy whether he thought Hoover just a nasty person or truly dangerous. “No, Kennedy replied, “I think he’s dangerous.” “He’s rather a psycho,” he told John Bartlow Martin, “…I think it’s a very dangerous agency…and I think he’s become senile and rather…frightening.” (p.260)
UNQUOTE

http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Kennedy-Times-Arthur-Schlesinger/dp/0618219285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460083881&sr=8-1&keywords=schlesinger+robert+kennedy#reader_0618219285

So much for “the decorum of statesmanlike speech.” If RFK didn’t want to comment on Dulles he could’ve said “no comment.” He didn’t have to lie.

Willy Whitten
April 8, 2016 at 5:23 am
“Anthony Lewis asked Robert Kennedy whether he thought Hoover just a nasty person or truly dangerous. “No, Kennedy replied, “I think he’s dangerous.” “He’s rather a psycho,” he told John Bartlow Martin, “…I think it’s a very dangerous agency…and I think he’s become senile and rather…frightening”.”~Jean Davison

Perhaps J Edgar Hoover was a softer target by that time. Dulles was still dangerous to RFK, in fact he most certainly had a hand in Robert Kennedy’s death as well as his brother John’s.
\\][//

Jean Davison
April 9, 2016 at 12:29 am
“Perhaps J Edgar Hoover was a softer target by that time. Dulles was still dangerous to RFK, in fact he most certainly had a hand in Robert Kennedy’s death as well as his brother John’s.”

Or maybe Schlesinger’s quote was accurate and RFK meant what he said. You certainly haven’t presented any evidence to the contrary. You haven’t shown that the Kennedys “despised” Dulles nor provided a shred of evidence for your other accusations quoted above.

Willy Whitten
April 9, 2016 at 2:01 am
“You haven’t shown that the Kennedys “despised” Dulles nor provided a shred of evidence for your other accusations quoted above.”~Jean Davison

I think that a proper assessment of the entire period shows that there was great antagonism between Kennedy and Dulles – serious mortal antagonism. If you can’t see that, it is no my problem.

You have not put either one of those quotes in context, nor perspective. You don’t even state what dates they were made, and it is unclear as to which author quoted which quote.
\\][//
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« Last Edit: Today at 01:41:46 AM by Tom Scully »

Online Lance Payette

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Re: Which Six Books Would You Recommend to a Newcomer?
« Reply #10 on: Today at 02:00:06 AM »
Lance, please accept my sincere apology. I'm aware my vision deteriorated but I've thought that my mind and memory have not also noticeably degraded.
I try to allow for the expectation that the person exhibiting such symptoms is always the last to know. I don't know how my post ended up worded that way.
I was pleased to log in here yesterday and find that you had decided to participate here. I intended my post to read that I disagreed with most of what I quoted
from your post, certainly not with almost everything you post generally.

Anyway, I believe Jean Davis was quoting what I posted about the post JFKA relations between Dulles and since I remain confident I accurately recall her opinion
and took the counter argument of hers. Her opinion had taken me quite by surprise,

No problem, Tom. I strongly disagree with at least half of my own posts!  :D In fact, when someone here appeared to have created sock puppets to agree with his posts, I suggested it would be way more fun and interesting to create a sock puppet who violently disagreed with your posts.

What I notice recently is that I will type a word completely different from the word I intended to type. On one post today, I meant to type "joined" and typed "enjoyed." My brain and memory still seem to be hitting on all cylinders, but it is quite weird and unnerving.

That is surprising about Jean, but I don't know enough about the RFK-Dulles stuff to comment. (My paternal grandmother was a fabulously wealthy Kansas City socialite who knew the Dulles family. More accurately, to quote my father (her son), she was a "good-looking slut" who had him at 16 - in 1908 - and then married into fabulous Kansas City wealth in the form of an industrialist named Lester T. Sunderland.)
« Last Edit: Today at 02:01:07 AM by Lance Payette »