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Author Topic: Is it plausible Oswald could have completely missed the limo with his first shot  (Read 320 times)

Online Benjamin Cole

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Like everyone else, I have puzzled over what happened to the three audible shots of 11/22. There may have been inaudible shots (simultaneous shots, or shots from a rifle with a silencer). Some witnesses heard four shots, but the most common account is "bang....bang-bang."

It does seem unlikely the TSBD6 sniper would miss the entire limo, and moreover the shot that hit a concrete curb hard enough to cause a fragment to chip off and cut James Tague's face is usually left unexplained.

The SBT-LNT theories are only theories, after all.

My best guess is first audible shot hit JFK, the second hit JBC, and the third JFK, as recounted by the Connallys, and which, in my layman's view, is seen in the Z-film.

I understand other JFKA buffs have different views.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
 

Online Lance Payette

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You probably have not done much shooting if you can't recognize how much more difficult the early first shot was compared to the to later an longer shots. At 88 yards or less, distance is hardly a factor at all. He was firing almost dead down range with little relative movement of the target to the line of fire. That was not true of the first shot which also required shooting from an awkward stance with nothing to brace the rifle with the window sash likely partially obscuring his view.

I've always wished somebody would do a reenactment of that first shot just to see what challenges it would have presented. I'm not asking for a duplication which is impossible. Just a re-enactment to highlight the difficulties.

In my 20's, I lived on my father-in-law's remote ranch where about the only amusement was shooting. I owned a .30-06, a .308, an old Mauser and virtually every caliber of handgun from .22 to .44 magnum. I had a Rock-Chucker reloading setup and was about as "into" shooting as one could reasonably be. That being said, I see no reason on earth that Oswald would have taken a shot from "an awkward stance with nothing to brace the rifle with the window sash likely partially obscuring his view," would have missed everything if he had, and would have then proceeded to place two shots pretty precisely on target - and I believe the best evidence and explanation is "he didn't." But then, I do have the advantage that I'm not trying to prop up some pet theory.

Online John Corbett

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Like everyone else, I have puzzled over what happened to the three audible shots of 11/22. There may have been inaudible shots (simultaneous shots, or shots from a rifle with a silencer). Some witnesses heard four shots, but the most common account is "bang....bang-bang."

It does seem unlikely the TSBD6 sniper would miss the entire limo, and moreover the shot that hit a concrete curb hard enough to cause a fragment to chip off and cut James Tague's face is usually left unexplained.

The SBT-LNT theories are only theories, after all.

My best guess is first audible shot hit JFK, the second hit JBC, and the third JFK, as recounted by the Connallys, and which, in my layman's view, is seen in the Z-film.

I understand other JFKA buffs have different views.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
 

We see JBC reacting to the first shot at Z164 just as he said he did and JFK is clearly not struck so it stands to reason that the shot didn't hit either of them. Almost immediately after they both reappear from behind the sign they both react by flipping their arms upward, after which JFK leans over to his left and JBC turns and dips to the right. Both have obviously been shot at that point. There is no evidence of any shots fired other than those fired by Oswald's rifle. There is no medical evidence of any shots fire from any direction other than behind the the two victims. There are no eyewitnesses who saw a gunman anywhere except the 6th floor sniper's nest. Why the hell would anyone believe there was a second gunman and why would they reject the SBT which is actually the Single Bullet Fact. It is the only plausible explanation for the wounds to JFK's torso and all of JBC's wounds. It did not require a magic bullet. It is the only explanation for those wounds ever offered that does not require magic bullet.

Online Michael T. Griffith

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That would be hard to believe if he was trying to shoot the limo but we can safely assume he was not.

Even one of your fellow lone-gunman theorists has pointed out to you that the sixth-floor gunman would have had to miss JFK by 3-4 feet in order to miss the gigantic limousine.

Even the Warren Commission, for all their faults, correctly reasoned that it was unlikely that the gunman would have missed the entire limo with his first and closest shot.

Once again you have put yourself on the amateur fringe of the lone-gunman camp. 

CTs like to raise this point to make it seem improbable that the same guy who missed the limo with his first shot could fire the next two with deadly accuracy. The first shot was by far the hardest for reasons I have laid out in previous threads.

And I've personally answered your silly reasons, pointing out why they are nonsensical. Yet, you regurgitate this nonsense and ignore the counterarguments that have been presented to you. A newcomer would never know this unless they bothered to read the threads in which your scenario has been critiqued. 

It seems ironic that some of the same CTs who don't think it is plausible that Oswald could have completely missed the limo with his first shot are perfectly willing to believe the GK shooter completely missed the limo with his one and only shot.

What is truly ironic is that someone who knows so little about the JFK case would pretend to be any kind of an authority on the shooting.

Now, just FYI, the grassy knoll gunman could have missed JFK's head by just a fraction of an inch and easily missed the limousine, because he was firing from slightly above and to the right of the limo.

In contrast, as even one of your fellow WC apologists has told you, your sixth-floor gunman would have had to miss JFK by 3-4 feet in order to miss the limousine. As a reminder, the limo was 21.5 feet long and 6.5 feet wide.

I notice you didn't mention your ridiculous theory that "Oswald" fired his first alleged shot before Z133, which would have required him to shoot at a sharply downward angle. The FBI's Robert Frazier told the WC that a pre-Z166 shot would have required a downward angle of 40 degrees.

Yet, at such an angle, the limo would have presented a gigantic target, impossible to miss.

And, I ask you again, where did this fanciful Z132-Z133 miss go? And, even more important, how could this miss have caused a bullet or fragment to hit the curb near James Tague and to send metal or concrete fragments streaking toward him with enough force to cut his cheek?

That was the conclusion of the HSCA based on their reliance on the acoustical evidence.

Once again you repeat misleading information that you have been corrected on in previous exchanges. As I have told you, the HSCA's staff were divided about whether the grassy knoll shot missed, and the syncing with the Zapruder film that made it into the final report omitted the 140.3 impulse pattern on the dictabelt, even though it passed the echo-delay matching test, and even though 8 of its 10 impulses matched the impulses of one of the Dealey Plaza test shots. 

Then of course we have the CTs who insist the GK shooter didn't miss the limo. They believe the GK shooter fired the kill shot to the head. This belief is illogical on so many levels. A headshot from the JFK would have resulted in massive trauma to the left hemisphere of JFK's brain. The left hemisphere was intact.

You know this is nonsense because I have personally addressed this very issue with you and cited medical experts to reinforce the points.

And, umm, are you the same John Corbett who has repeatedly said you're "not qualified" to explain the medical evidence? Yet, here you are making sweeping--and erroneous--claims about the medical evidence regarding a shot from the front.

A right-frontal head shot with a high-velocity frangible bullet would not necessarily have caused "massive trauma" to the left side of the brain.

If the left brain was "intact," how did bullet fragments get lodged in it? FYI, there are fragments in the left side of JFK’s brain, and there are also fragments lying below the horizontal plane of the floor of the anterior fossa, on both the left and right sides of the skull, a fact confirmed by Dr. Wecht, Dr. Aguilar, and Dr. Chessar--and Dr. Mantik also confirmed this with optical-density measurements.

You know, you are constantly blundering over the medical evidence because you haven't done your homework. You haven't even read the HSCA FPP's report, the Clark Panel's report, the RC medical panel's report, the released HSCA medical interviews and testimony, and the ARRB medical-related interviews, much less any of the scholarly research on the JFK medical evidence done by private experts over the last 20 years.

If JFK had been driven back by such a shot, he would have gone back and to the left, toward the center of the back seat. The reality is he went straight back. When his back contacted the rear seatback, he was still on the far right side of the seat. The illusion that he went back and to the left was created by the fact he was already leaning to his left when he went straight back following the headshot.

LOL! Oh, so the left-rear head snap is just an "illusion"! You again show that you don't even know what your own side has said on key issues.

Even your side's most qualified wound ballistics expert, Dr. Larry Sturdivan, acknowledges that back-left head snap occurs in the Zapruder film. He says that the film shows JFK's head moving "rapidly backward" and that the head snap moves "the President’s torso backward into the seat of the car."

FYI, Sturdivan rejects the jet-effect explanation and the neuromuscular-reaction explanation for the head snap; he says the rapid backward motion was caused by a muscle spasm that resulted from spinal damage induced by the head shot (The JFK Myths, pp. 154-167)

Lastly, the most compelling reason to dismiss a headshot coming from the GK is there is no medical evidence of such a shot. The medical evidence is conclusive that the headshot was fired from behind JFK.

One, you know this is false because I have personally cited and linked for you research by Dr. Chesser and Dr. Mantik that presents medical evidence of a shot from the front, including clear evidence on the skull x-rays.

Two, in other threads you have cried, "I don't have to explain the medical evidence because I'm not qualified to explain it." Then what in the devil are you doing here talking about the medical evidence?! Huh?

IOW, when you're asked to explain the indisputable proof of alteration and fraud in the medical evidence, you beg off with the claim that, gee, you're just not qualified to explain the medical evidence. But, then you turn around in other threads and make adamant declarations about what the medical evidence does and does not show.

The radiating fracture lines from the entry point in the back of JFK's head establish that fact.

Oh?! Well, umm, which "entry point in the back of JFK's head" are you talking about? According to the autopsy doctors, the autopsy radiologist, the autopsy photographer, and two federal agents who attended the autopsy, as well as Dr. Sturdivan, Dr. Riley, Dr. Mantik, Dr. Aguilar, Dr. Chesser, and others, the entry point was the EOP site described in the autopsy report and reaffirmed by the autopsy doctors after a five-hour review of the autopsy materials in 1966. But, according to the HSCA FPP, the Clark Panel, and the RC medical panel, the entry site was a whopping 4 inches higher, at least 1 cm above the lambda in the parietal bone.

Which entry point are you talking about?

So does the inward beveling in the bullet hole in the back of JFK's head.

LOL! I know you have no clue what a land mine you just stepped on with this comment. I know you have no clue about the severe disagreements over the issue of beveling in the skull and in the skull fragments. 

The autopsy doctors specifically cited beveling in the skull at the EOP site as evidence of an entry wound. They even reflected the scalp and examined the wound from both sides. Dr. Boswell dropped the bombshell on the HSCA, and again with the ARRB, that part of the rear head entry wound was contained in one of the late-arriving skull fragments from Dallas. Dr. Finck even had pictures taken of the interior of the EOP entry wound, but they vanished.

Your comment again begs the question: Which entry point are you talking about? 

So does the fact that the massive brain trauma was to the right hemisphere of JFK's brain.

WHHAAAAATTT?! So you reject the brain photos after all, since they show no "massive trauma" to the right hemisphere, and since they only show "less than 1-2 ounces" of missing brain tissue from the entire brain?!

I certainly agree that the autopsy skull x-rays show massive trauma to the right brain; they show about 2/3 of the right brain to be missing. But we see no such damage in the alleged autopsy brain photos.

The brain photos only show one long laceration starting at the front of the right occipital lobe and running slightly to the right of the midline to the end of the frontal lobe. This narrow laceration does not even touch the occipital lobes--both the right and left occipital lobes are intact, undamaged.

And, again, Baden himself admitted that the brain photos show "less than 1-2 ounces" of missing brain tissue, yet the skull x-rays show a massive loss of brain tissue in the right brain, about 2/3 of the right cerebrum, a fact first identified by Dr. Fred Hodges of the RC medical panel, and confirmed years later by Dr. Mantik, Dr. Aguilar, Dr. Chesser, Dr. Humes, Dr. Lattimer, etc. 

Even WC critic Cyril Wecht agrees the medical evidence indicates conclusively that the head shot came from behind JFK.

You know this is false. I have personally pointed out to you that even in his HSCA FPP dissent, Wecht argued for a frontal shot, and that after the FPP he became even more convinced there was a frontal shot.

And, just for your education, here's what Wecht said about the kind of ammo that caused JFK's head damage in an interview with Howard Donahue:

It is my experience, including bullets that are not as powerful and fully jacketed ammunition like this, that they do not explode into dozens of pieces. They make break into two or three fragments or pieces, but they don't just disintegrate like that. And so when you say it behaved much more like a soft or hollow-point or so on, I agree with you. I've been saying that for a long time." (Mortal Error, p. 231)

As I have pointed out to you several times, Dr. Vincent DiMaio, considered one of the best forensic pathologists in the 20th and 21st centuries, said the exact same thing: that FMJ bullets will never shatter into dozens of tiny fragments.

If the forensic evidence proves anything, it proves that the ammo that hit JFK's head was not the same kind of ammo that Oswald allegedly used. Oswald supposedly used full-metal-jacketed (FMJ) ammo, but FMJ ammo will never, ever, ever shatter into dozens of tiny fragments, much less while also magically leaving several fragments in the rear outer table of the skull and two fragments at the other end of the skull near the right orbit.

So does every qualified medicat [medical] examiner who reviewed the photos and x-rays from the autopsy.

You know this is both false and misleading. And, apparently you don't know that not all medical examiners are forensic pathologists.

Dr. Wecht, Dr. Nichols, and Dr. Fillinger were forensic pathologists, and all three rejected the lone-gunman shooting scenario and argued that the ammo that hit JFK's head could not have been FMJ ammo. A host of other highly qualified medical experts have likewise rejected your version of the shooting and have posited a frontal shot, including Dr. Robert Livingston, Dr. David Mantik, Dr. Randy Robertson, Dr. Joseph Riley, Dr. Gary Aguilar, Dr. Greg Henkelmann, Dr. Art Snyder, Dr. Doug DeSalles, Dr. John Costello, and Dr. Michael Chesser.

I notice you didn't say a word about the evidence of a frontal shot that I've presented to you in other threads. 

A shot from the GK simply isn't plausible no matter how you slice it.

It is far more plausible than your impossible scenario of an FMJ bullet not only shattering into dozens of tiny fragments but also magically leaving several fragments in the rear outer table of the skull and leaving two more fragments at the other end of the skull near the right orbit.

Even Dr. Sturdivan has admitted, in writing, that no FMJ bullet could have deposited a fragment at its entry point on the rear outer table of the skull, much less below its entry point while allegedly entering at a 15-degree downward angle. It is a physical impossibility.   

« Last Edit: Today at 03:21:08 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Online John Corbett

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I notice you didn't mention your ridiculous theory that "Oswald" fired his first alleged shot before Z133, which would have required him to shoot at a sharply downward angle. The FBI's Robert Frazier told the WC that a pre-Z166 shot would have required a downward angle of 40 degrees.

That's not my theory and never has been. Your reading comprehension is as bad as your analytical skills.
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Yet, at such an angle, the limo would have presented a gigantic target, impossible to miss.

So you do think the limo was Oswald's target. That's hilarious.