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John Corbett

Author Topic: Is it plausible Oswald could have completely missed the limo with his first shot  (Read 2946 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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BS

It's not even good BS
I am not sure what “good BS” is but if you think independent witnesses can’t corroborate each other you should do a bit of research.  Why not ask your AI friends? 

Online John Corbett

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I am not sure what “good BS” is but if you think independent witnesses can’t corroborate each other you should do a bit of research.  Why not ask your AI friends?

Did the independent witness who thought all the shots came from the GK corroborate the other independent witnesses who thought all the shots came from the GK.

Online Charles Collins

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It appears from his testimony that he hadn't really thought about which shot hit him, other than recalling that it wasn't the first.  When asked about it whether he heard a shot afterward, he thought and said he did recall hearing a shot after the shot that hit him. Since he heard only three shots, he said it must have been the second that hit him. 

But I agree, by itself it is not reliable.  What makes it much more reliable is the rest of the evidence. 

According to the shot pattern observed by over 40 witnesses, the last two shots were close together and after the midpoint between the first and third shots.  That means that JFK was struck by the first shot (as about 25 witnesses reported) and the second was after z255. The second shot struck JBC in the wrist and sent numerous flecks of lead into the wrist and made a long jagged hole in the french cuff but a non-jagged hole in the jacket pocket and jacket cuff.  That is not only consistent with a fragmenting bullet, but also with the fragments deflecting away from the point of contact with the radius.  The orientation of the wrist up near his chest exit wound after z240 means the fragments would have deflected up.

Greer said that he sensed a "concussion" from something impacting in the car on the second shot. The damage to the windshield frame was just above his right ear. He reported no impact sound from the other shots.  Greer said the second shot was almost simultaneous with his first turn to the rear (z281) when he saw JBC falling back.  We know that on one of the shots fragments struck the windshield and windshield frame. It is at least interesting that the left sun visor appears to move forward between z271 and z272:



A fragment striking the windshield and frame and at least one fragment going a bit higher and striking the road and curb near Tague is consistent with the second shot fragmenting and deflecting upward off the wrist. 

It is not impossible that Tague was wrong in thinking he heard a shot after he was hit, but that would mean that he was hit by a fragment from the head shot. The only problem with the head shot causing the damage to the windshield and a fragment going up over the windshield is that I don't see that it struck anything hard that could have deflected it.  It likely fragmented upon striking the back of the head but that did not change its direction. The bullet or bullet fragments passed through the head and exited on a downward trajectory from the SN.  So I don't see what hard impact would have caused a fragment to deflect upward after that.


Tague seems pretty clueless to me. He is all over the place. In his book he is adamant that the third shot missed. I personally have no problem discounting his ideas enough to believe that an early first shot could have been the one that missed.

BTW, here is what DPD motorcycle officer Stavis Ellis told Larry Sneed as shown on page 144 of his book “No More Silence”:

“We came west on Main Street to Houston Street and took a right, facing right into that building. The building with the window was looking right at us as we came up to Elm Street and made a left, heading back toward the Triple Underpass. Midway down Elm I remember waving at my wife’s niece and nephew, Bill and Gayle Newman, who had apparently come out to see the President. About the time I started on a curve on Elm, I had turned to my right to give signals to open up the intervals since we were fixing to get on the freeway a short distance away. That’s all I had on my mind. Just as I turned around, then the first shot went off. It hit back there. I hadn’t been able to see back where Chaney was because Curry was there, but I could see where the shot came down into the south side of the curb. It looked like it hit the concrete or grass there in just a flash, and a bunch of junk flew up like a white or gray color dust or smoke coming out of the concrete.




I drew a yellow circle around the location of the manhole cover apron (where it is believed that a bullet ricocheted) on the south side of Elm Street. I also drew a dashed yellow line to show that Curry’s car would have been close to the line of sight of Ellis trying to look back at the area of the limo where Cheney was. This is around the time that I believe an early first shot might have occurred. Stavis Ellis (-5 character in the animation) is just approaching the entrance to the triple overpass.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:06:55 PM by Charles Collins »

Online Andrew Mason

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Did the independent witness who thought all the shots came from the GK corroborate the other independent witnesses who thought all the shots came from the GK.
You need to provide a specific example to determine if there is a common observation.  From what I have seen there was no clear observation by anyone who reported the knoll as the source of the shots. They reported confusion as to the direction of the source of the shots.  For example Mary Woodward and Austin Miller are often listed as GK ear-witnesses, but here is what they actually said:

Mary Woodward (24 H 520):



Austin Miller s(6 H 225):



Are you seriously asking if Miller corroborates Woodward or vice-versa?

Online John Corbett

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Are you seriously asking if Miller corroborates Woodward or vice-versa?

No, I am saying neither corroborates the other because both could be wrong. There is no physical evidence that corroborates either.

Online Andrew Mason

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Tague seems pretty clueless to me. He is all over the place. In his book he is adamant that the third shot missed. I personally have no problem discounting his ideas enough to believe that an early first shot could have been the one that missed.
I would agree that Tague’s later writings are not worth much as evidence and should be ignored.

Quote
BTW, here is what DPD motorcycle officer Stavis Ellis told Larry Sneed as shown on page 144 of his book “No More Silence”:

“We came west on Main Street to Houston Street and took a right, facing right into that building. The building with the window was looking right at us as we came up to Elm Street and made a left, heading back toward the Triple Underpass. Midway down Elm I remember waving at my wife’s niece and nephew, Bill and Gayle Newman, who had apparently come out to see the President. About the time I started on a curve on Elm, I had turned to my right to give signals to open up the intervals since we were fixing to get on the freeway a short distance away. That’s all I had on my mind. Just as I turned around, then the first shot went off. It hit back there. I hadn’t been able to see back where Chaney was because Curry was there, but I could see where the shot came down into the south side of the curb. It looked like it hit the concrete or grass there in just a flash, and a bunch of junk flew up like a white or gray color dust or smoke coming out of the concrete.



I drew a yellow circle around the location of the manhole cover apron (where it is believed that a bullet ricocheted) on the south side of Elm Street. I also drew a dashed yellow line to show that Curry’s car would have been close to the line of sight of Ellis trying to look back at the area of the limo where Cheney was. This is around the time that I believe an early first shot might have occurred. Stavis Ellis (-5 character in the animation) is just approaching the entrance to the triple overpass.
I find it difficult to believe that Ellis really saw what he described for the first time in a book published in 1998 and did not mention it in any statement to the WC or HSCA or to anyone else in the preceding 35 years.

And as far as his reliability as a witness, do you think his reported observation of a hole in the limo windshield was accurate? Ellis told interviewer Gil Toff in 1971: “There was a hole in the left front windshield…You could put a pencil through it…you could take a regular standard writing pencil…and stick [it] through there.”




Online Andrew Mason

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No, I am saying neither corroborates the other because both could be wrong. There is no physical evidence that corroborates either.
Both couldbe wrong?  How could either be right if they couldn’t tell where the shot came from? 

Physical evidence is not the only way to corroborate a witness.  Since you seem to be afraid of using AI I asked this question:

In researching the witness statements in the JFK assassination, I have found 25 witnesses who independently reported that JFK reacted visibly to the first shot. No one said he continued to smile and wave after the first shot.  What is the probability that these 25 witnesses independently made similar incorrect observations and, in fact, JFK continued to smile and wave for 3 or 4 seconds after the first shot?


and Chat GPT gave this answer:

The short answer is: you can’t calculate a meaningful probability from the witness count alone, and any numerical answer would require assumptions that cannot be justified from the available evidence.

Here’s why.

If you have 25 genuinely independent witnesses who all reported that President John F. Kennedy visibly reacted immediately after the first shot, and no witnesses reported that he continued smiling and waving for another 3–4 seconds after that first shot, then that is strong evidence against the “continued smiling and waving” scenario.

However, to compute an actual probability, you’d need to know things like:

* how accurate each witness typically is,
* whether their errors are independent,
* whether they influenced one another,
* what each person’s vantage point was,
* what prior probability you assign to each hypothesis.

Without those inputs, there is no defensible way to produce a number like “1 in a million.”

A simple illustration

Suppose (purely hypothetically) each witness had a 90% chance of correctly identifying whether JFK visibly reacted immediately after the first shot, and suppose their observations were completely independent.

Then the probability that all 25 independently made the same incorrect observation would be:

(0.10)^{25} = 10^{-25}

That is astronomically small.

But that calculation depends entirely on assumptions that are almost certainly false:

* eyewitnesses are not statistically independent;
* they viewed the event from different angles and distances;
* memory can be influenced by subsequent discussion and media coverage;
* some witnesses are more reliable than others.

What historians actually do

Rather than trying to assign a numerical probability, historians and forensic investigators look for convergence of evidence.

If:

* 25 independent witnesses describe an immediate visible reaction,
* the contemporaneous films show an immediate change in JFK’s posture,
* the medical evidence is consistent with a shot having already occurred,

then the combined evidence strongly favors the conclusion that JFK reacted at or very shortly after the first shot.

Conversely, if a theory requires JFK to have remained smiling and waving for another 3–4 seconds after the first shot, that theory would need to explain why:

* none of those 25 witnesses reported that,
* multiple independent observations instead describe an immediate reaction,
* and the visual record would have to be interpreted in a way consistent with that claim.

One caution

The key question is whether those 25 witnesses are truly independent. If they gave statements before being exposed to media accounts, were located at different positions, and had no opportunity to influence one another, then the agreement among them is much stronger than if they all learned details from a common source afterward.

So, while it is not possible to assign a rigorous probability to your question, the existence of 25 independent witnesses all describing an immediate reaction—and none describing several more seconds of smiling and waving—would generally be considered strong evidentiary support for the immediate-reaction account.