CIA Wallets at Tenth and Patton

[Mitch Todd]

There's nothing at all about anything happening at 3:35PM nor at 4:00PM.

That's exactly what I figured you would say. It isn't written verbatim in Bentley's statement, so let's just ignore the combined statements of Hill and Bentley and just claim nothing happened at 3:35 PM or later.

Bentley says that he left the Homicide Bureau and went to Westbrook's office --that is, the Personnel division-- to write reports. Hill and Carrol also talk about this. The migration of the arresting party happened in the 2-o'clock hour, so the turnover of the wallet in the Homicide department had to have occurred long before you want to believe.

So now you want to consider the combined statements of the officers? Not only is it dishonest, it's also a massive misrepresentation. And of course not to mention that there is no record of a wallet being handed over to Lt Baker at 2:00 PM.
All you are doing is presenting a self-serving conclusion based on hot air that doesn't even answer my two basic questions.

Bentley says that he left the Homicide Bureau and went to Westbrook's office --that is, the Personnel division-- to write reports.

No, he did not say that at all. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that he initialed the S & W revolver before it was turned over the Lt Baker and he did the same with Oswald's identification, before he went to Westbrook's office to write his report.
Gerald Hill tells us in his report this happend at approx 3:15 PM.

The sequence of events is a simple one; Carroll, Hill, Walker and Bentley bring Oswald to the Homicide bureau, where they leave him with uniformed officers. They then went to the personnel office (where a number of officers had gathered) where the revolver was initialed and handed over to Lt Baker along with the wallet. Even if this had only taken 10 minutes after leaving Oswald at the Homicide Bureau, you still have a wallet problem, because Guy Rose arrived at the Homicide Bureau just after Oswald had been brought in and when he got there he was given a wallet in which he found the Hidell ID.

So, how does a wallet being held either by Bentley or Baker, find it's way in less than a minute or two to Guy Rose and why did Walker have the Hidell ID?

MW: No, he did not say that at all. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that he initialed the S & W revolver before it was turned over the Lt Baker and he did the same with Oswald's identification, before he went to Westbrook's office to write his report.
Gerald Hill tells us in his report this happend at approx 3:15 PM.

This is what Hill had to say in his report to Curry about the handover of the pistol at 3:15 PM:

"I retained this gun in my posesssion until approximately 3:15 pm Friday, November 22, 1963, when in the presence of  Officers Carroll and McDonald, I turned this weapon over to Detective T. L. Baker of the Homicide and Robbery Bureau.

"At the time the pistol was released to Detective Baker, McDonald, Carroll, and I had all marked it for identification purposes, and in the presence of McDonald and Carroll, I marked the side of the casing on all the shells, which were also turned over to Detective Baker at the same time"

Notice who isn't mentioned here? Yes, Bentley! ...And also Lyons, the other arresting officer who wound up being sent to the hospital for a ankle injury incurred during the arrest. Hill's report actually implies that Bentley and Lyons had already left for the hospital (presumably Parkland, though Baylor would have been closest)  when Hill, et al, turned over the revolver to Baker at 3:15.

[Martin Weidmann]

MW: No, he did not say that at all. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that he initialed the S & W revolver before it was turned over the Lt Baker and he did the same with Oswald's identification, before he went to Westbrook's office to write his report.
Gerald Hill tells us in his report this happend at approx 3:15 PM.

This is what Hill had to say in his report to Curry about the handover of the pistol at 3:15 PM:

"I retained this gun in my posesssion until approximately 3:15 pm Friday, November 22, 1963, when in the presence of  Officers Carroll and McDonald, I turned this weapon over to Detective T. L. Baker of the Homicide and Robbery Bureau.

"At the time the pistol was released to Detective Baker, McDonald, Carroll, and I had all marked it for identification purposes, and in the presence of McDonald and Carroll, I marked the side of the casing on all the shells, which were also turned over to Detective Baker at the same time"

Notice who isn't mentioned here? Yes, Bentley! ...And also Lyons, the other arresting officer who wound up being sent to the hospital for a ankle injury incurred during the arrest. Hill's report actually implies that Bentley and Lyons had already left for the hospital (presumably Parkland, though Baylor would have been closest)  when Hill, et al, turned over the revolver to Baker at 3:15.

Notice who isn't mentioned here? Yes, Bentley!

True, but Bentley said it himself in his report to Chief Curry.

Hill's report actually implies that Bentley and Lyons had already left for the hospital

No, Hill's report doesn't imply anything of the kind. When you feel the need to make stuff up, you've already lost the argument!

This is what happens when you cherry pick the evidence you like and ignore the rest.

Btw, you still haven't provided an answer about Guy Rose and C.T. Walker.... Why is that? 

[Mitch Todd]

Notice who isn't mentioned here? Yes, Bentley!

True, but Bentley said it himself in his report to Chief Curry.

Hill's report actually implies that Bentley and Lyons had already left for the hospital

No, Hill's report doesn't imply anything of the kind. When you feel the need to make stuff up, you've already lost the argument!

This is what happens when you cherry pick the evidence you like and ignore the rest.

Btw, you still haven't provided an answer about Guy Rose and C.T. Walker.... Why is that? 

MW: True, but Bentley said it himself in his report to Chief Curry.

Did Bentley say that he engraved his initials on the gun at the same time as Hill, Carroll, Walker, and McDonald? No. You're assuming that all of the officers itnitalled the weapon at the same time, but there's nothing in the record that requires, implies, or suggests that this is the case.


MW: No, Hill's report doesn't imply anything of the kind. When you feel the need to make stuff up, you've already lost the argument!

Oh, but it does. You just won't let the sunshine into your mind. Carrol testified to the same thing:

Mr. BALL: And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald make the mark on the gun?

Mr. CARROLL: Well, let's see - there was myself, Mack, I think Ray Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked


MW: Btw, you still haven't provided an answer about Guy Rose and C.T. Walker.... Why is that?

Because you kept emphasizing Bentley, so that's what I responded to. Your Bentley angle has crashed and burned, so now you want to change the subject.

[Martin Weidmann]

MW: True, but Bentley said it himself in his report to Chief Curry.

Did Bentley say that he engraved his initials on the gun at the same time as Hill, Carroll, Walker, and McDonald? No. You're assuming that all of the officers itnitalled the weapon at the same time, but there's nothing in the record that requires, implies, or suggests that this is the case.


MW: No, Hill's report doesn't imply anything of the kind. When you feel the need to make stuff up, you've already lost the argument!

Oh, but it does. You just won't let the sunshine into your mind. Carrol testified to the same thing:

Mr. BALL: And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald make the mark on the gun?

Mr. CARROLL: Well, let's see - there was myself, Mack, I think Ray Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked


MW: Btw, you still haven't provided an answer about Guy Rose and C.T. Walker.... Why is that?

Because you kept emphasizing Bentley, so that's what I responded to. Your Bentley angle has crashed and burned, so now you want to change the subject.

Did Bentley say that he engraved his initials on the gun at the same time as Hill, Carroll, Walker, and McDonald? No. You're assuming that all of the officers itnitalled the weapon at the same time, but there's nothing in the record that requires, implies, or suggests that this is the case.

Moving the goalpost again? This is exactly the kind of BS that I have seen coming from you in previous conversations. Hill said he had the revolver all the time, until he handed it over to Lt Baker. Your suggestion that Bentley initialed the revolver before everybody else did is an assumption for which there is no evidence. It also doesn't make any sense!

Oh, but it does. You just won't let the sunshine into your mind. Carrol testified to the same thing:

First you claim that Hill's testimony implied it (which it didn't) and now you come up with Carroll who only believes that Bentley and Lyons had already left and doesn't even recall if Westbrook was there.

Wow, that's some solid "evidence" 

The one good thing coming out of this is the fact that there also isn't a solid chain of custody for the wallet, just like there isn't one for the revolver, the gray jacket and CE 399.

Because you kept emphasizing Bentley, so that's what I responded to. Your Bentley angle has crashed and burned, so now you want to change the subject.

Nope.. the question about Rose and Walker was already asked before you joined the conversation. The fact that you don't understand ignored that shows exactly your strategy of talking about anything except the matter I wanted to discuss.

And my Bentley angle hasn't crashed and burned. You haven't even come close to making a coherent argument. All you are doing is cherry picking evidence and throwing it at the wall to see what sticks.

As for the original question, which directly relates to the existence of two wallets, you are still completely lost in the dark.

I said it before and I'll repeat it now; talking to you is a waste of time!