JFK's Throat Wound Was an Entrance Wound: Refuting the Shored-Wound Theory

[Jack Nessan]

The question is the same. How about if you are not able to understand it or answer it, maybe just state why you won't. All of this make-believe information and supposed expert opinion from half-baked pseudo experts is pathetic, not impressive. Apparently not one of them could think past his nose and ask themselves the important question about JBC's wounding.

You want someone to ask you a question. How about just repeat to you the question you are dodging and afraid to answer.

Once again, the same old random nonsense and unbelievably loose with the facts. How do you explain Gov Connally's wounds if the bullet does not first pass through JFK?

[Michael T. Griffith]

Now is a good time to discuss the HSCA testimony of Richard Lipsey. Lipsey was an aide to Major General Philip Wehle, the commanding general of the military district of Washington, D.C. Lipsey was ordered by Wehle to monitor JFK's body during the autopsy. Lipsey arrived at the autopsy just before the body was taken out of the casket, and he remained in the autopsy room long after Sibert and O'Neill left. Lipsey noted that he was about 12-15 feet from the autopsy table.

Lipsey confirmed that the autopsy doctors found that the back wound had no exit point. He said the doctors were "bound and determined to find that bullet because it didn't have an exit mark" (HSCA interview: Richard Lipsey, 1/18/78, p. 5). He said they spent some two hours trying to find the back-wound bullet (p. 7). He described how the doctors opened the chest cavity and removed all the chest organs (pp. 8, 13-14). Said Lipsey,

. . . then they cut his chest open, you know, and they got all of his insides out, that was the only gory part, they took them out a piece at a time and laid them up on, I remember, a beautiful clean stainless steel rack. . . .

I remember they were bound and determined to find that bullet because it didn't have an exit mark. . . .

But the one that I remember they spent so much time on, obviously, was the one they found did not come out. There was a bullet -- that's my vivid recollection cause that's all they talked about. For about two hours all they talked about was finding that bullet.

They turned the body up at one point to determine where that bullet that entered back here that didn't have an exit mark. Where was that bullet? And so when it got to down to where they thought it hit his chest cavity, they opened him up and started looking in here. That's why I remember one thing, they took, after they had taken all his organs out, during the autopsy they had them sitting up there: "Now let's see if we can find the bullet". . . .(pp. 5, 7, 8, 14)

In a fascinating twist, Lipsey said the doctors concluded that the bullet that hit low in the back of the head had exited the throat (pp. 7, 20). This is a revealing datum because we know from the 1/27/64 WC executive session transcript that one of the first drafts of the autopsy report said a fragment from the head shot exited the throat, that the throat wound was the exit point for a head-shot fragment. This is also further proof that the pathologists knew about the throat wound during the autopsy.

This datum is also important because it is further evidence that the rear head entry wound was near the EOP/hairline, as the autopsy doctors reported, and not 4 inches higher above the lambda in the parietal bone. Lipsey said the wound was in the "upper neck/lower part of your head" and "in the hairline" (pp. 22). Lipsey several times spoke of the area just above the hairline as being part of the "upper neck," but he clarified this to mean "lower part of your head."

BTW, Lipsey said there was visible damage to JFK's face but that the face looked "great" after the morticians did their reconstruction work. He said the visible facial damage included considerable loss of structure, and that the damaged area included the right eye, the right forehead, and an area slightly beyond the hairline (pp. 6-7).

Now this is mighty interesting because this is the damage you'd expect to see in the "stare of death" autopsy photo, given the frontal-bone damage shown in the skull x-rays. No wonder Smithsonian Institution forensic anthropologist Dr. Doug Ubelaker told the ARRB that "the apparent absence of bone in much of the anterior portion of these x-rays seems inconsistent with the intact appearance of the right forehead in the photos" (ARRB meeting report: Dr. Douglas Ubelaker, 1/26/96, p. 2).

Lipsey's testimony is also crucial because he heard the autopsy doctors talking about a wound scenario after Sibert and O'Neill left the autopsy room that was different from the one the doctors had conveyed shortly before Sibert and O'Neill had departed. Lipsey said the autopsy doctors concluded that three bullets hit JFK: one on the right side of the head, one just above the hairline, and one in the lower part of the neck. Dr. David Mantik:

Horne’s clue to this changing story came from a 1978 HSCA interview with Richard Lipsey, the former military aide to the commanding general of the military district of Washington, General Philip C. Wehle. Horne emphasized that in 1978, Lipsey “was very certain of his recollections—his oral account is noteworthy for the conviction with which he recounted his memories.” He continued: “Mr. Lipsey relayed an account that is different from both the Sibert-O’Neill report, and from the autopsy now present in the Archives, CE 387.” He then stressed the following:

"It is a virtual certainty that the autopsy conclusions he [Richard Lipsey] was privy to were identical with the contents of the first draft of the autopsy which was reviewed by Drs. Humes, Boswell, and [Robert O.] Canada [the commanding officer of the naval medical hospital at Bethesda] on Saturday, November 23rd, and which was destroyed less than twenty four hours later in the fireplace of James J. Humes."

According to Lipsey, sometime after midnight -- and after the two FBI agents had disappeared -- the pathologists declared that JFK had been hit by three shots from behind. That first autopsy draft had concluded that the sole headshot had “entered the back of the head and blew out part of the right side of the skull, creating one large defect that represented both the bullet’s entrance and exit.” It also concluded that a “second bullet entered very high up on the back of the neck, just inside the hairline [i.e., on the back of the head between the hairline and the EOP], and exited from the throat” -- and a “third bullet entered at the bottom of the neck, or high in the back, and did not exit.”

Horne asked a critical question: “Why didn’t the autopsy conclusions, reported by Richard Lipsey, and committed to writing in the first draft of the autopsy report, become the official conclusions?” He elucidated:

"The answer to this question, I believe, is a simple one. By the time Drs. Humes, Boswell, and Canada met and reviewed the draft autopsy report on Saturday, November 23rd, the entire nation, and indeed the world, had become aware that one shot had missed, and had wounded bystander James Tague in the cheek, after striking a curb on Main Street in Dealey Plaza. This account was in the Dallas newspapers Saturday morning, and 'hit the wire' the same day, thus becoming available to newspapers (and radio stations) all across the country. This meant that the autopsy conclusions witnessed by Richard Lipsey could not stand, for the central conclusion reached by the pathologists after midnight was that the President had been hit by three shots.

"It was for this reason that the autopsy conclusions witnessed by Richard Lipsey, and likely memorialized in the first written draft of the autopsy protocol, did not last for even 24 hours. Because any report that postulated that President Kennedy had been hit by three bullets was now contradicted by ‘the facts on the ground.’ James J. Humes destroyed the first draft of the autopsy protocol, along with any notes indicating three shots hit the President, in his fireplace before dawn on Sunday November 24th, 1963. In response to the missed shot that hit James Tague, the autopsy conclusions now evolved back into a two-hit scenario, but one which now accounted for the bullet wound in the anterior neck." [Quoting Doug Horne, Inside the ARRB, Vol. 3, pp. 856-857, 863]

According to Lipsey, sometime after midnight -- and after the two FBI agents had disappeared -- the pathologists declared that JFK had been hit by three shots from behind. That first autopsy draft had concluded that the sole headshot had “entered the back of the head and blew out part of the right side of the skull, creating one large defect that represented both the bullet’s entrance and exit.” It also concluded that a “second bullet entered very high up on the back of the neck, just inside the hairline, and exited from the throat”—and a “third bullet entered at the bottom of the neck, or high in the back, and did not exit.” (The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: The Final Analysis, 2024, pp. 59-61)

[John Corbett]

Now is a good time to discuss the HSCA testimony of Richard Lipsey. Lipsey was an aide to Major General Philip Wehle, the commanding general of the military district of Washington, D.C. Lipsey was ordered by Wehle to monitor JFK's body during the autopsy. Lipsey arrived at the autopsy just before the body was taken out of the casket, and he remained in the autopsy room long after Sibert and O'Neill left. Lipsey noted that he was about 12-15 feet from the autopsy table.

Lipsey confirmed that the autopsy doctors found that the back wound had no exit point. He said the doctors were "bound and determined to find that bullet because it didn't have an exit mark" (HSCA interview: Richard Lipsey, 1/18/78, p. 5). He said they spent some two hours trying to find the back-wound bullet (p. 7). He described how the doctors opened the chest cavity and removed all the chest organs (pp. 8, 13-14). Said Lipsey,

. . . then they cut his chest open, you know, and they got all of his insides out, that was the only gory part, they took them out a piece at a time and laid them up on, I remember, a beautiful clean stainless steel rack. . . .

I remember they were bound and determined to find that bullet because it didn't have an exit mark. . . .

But the one that I remember they spent so much time on, obviously, was the one they found did not come out. There was a bullet -- that's my vivid recollection cause that's all they talked about. For about two hours all they talked about was finding that bullet.

They turned the body up at one point to determine where that bullet that entered back here that didn't have an exit mark. Where was that bullet? And so when it got to down to where they thought it hit his chest cavity, they opened him up and started looking in here. That's why I remember one thing, they took, after they had taken all his organs out, during the autopsy they had them sitting up there: "Now let's see if we can find the bullet". . . .(pp. 5, 7, 8, 14)

In a fascinating twist, Lipsey said the doctors concluded that the bullet that hit low in the back of the head had exited the throat (pp. 7, 20). This is a revealing datum because we know from the 1/27/64 WC executive session transcript that one of the first drafts of the autopsy report said a fragment from the head shot exited the throat, that the throat wound was the exit point for a head-shot fragment. This is also further proof that the pathologists knew about the throat wound during the autopsy.

This datum is also important because it is further evidence that the rear head entry wound was near the EOP/hairline, as the autopsy doctors reported, and not 4 inches higher above the lambda in the parietal bone. Lipsey said the wound was in the "upper neck/lower part of your head" and "in the hairline" (pp. 22). Lipsey several times spoke of the area just above the hairline as being part of the "upper neck," but he clarified this to mean "lower part of your head."

BTW, Lipsey said there was visible damage to JFK's face but that the face looked "great" after the morticians did their reconstruction work. He said the visible facial damage included considerable loss of structure, and that the damaged area included the right eye, the right forehead, and an area slightly beyond the hairline (pp. 6-7).

Now this is mighty interesting because this is the damage you'd expect to see in the "stare of death" autopsy photo, given the frontal-bone damage shown in the skull x-rays. No wonder Smithsonian Institution forensic anthropologist Dr. Doug Ubelaker told the ARRB that "the apparent absence of bone in much of the anterior portion of these x-rays seems inconsistent with the intact appearance of the right forehead in the photos" (ARRB meeting report: Dr. Douglas Ubelaker, 1/26/96, p. 2).

Lipsey's testimony is also crucial because he heard the autopsy doctors talking about a wound scenario after Sibert and O'Neill left the autopsy room that was different from the one the doctors had conveyed shortly before Sibert and O'Neill had departed. Lipsey said the autopsy doctors concluded that three bullets hit JFK: one on the right side of the head, one just above the hairline, and one in the lower part of the neck. Dr. David Mantik:

Horne’s clue to this changing story came from a 1978 HSCA interview with Richard Lipsey, the former military aide to the commanding general of the military district of Washington, General Philip C. Wehle. Horne emphasized that in 1978, Lipsey “was very certain of his recollections—his oral account is noteworthy for the conviction with which he recounted his memories.” He continued: “Mr. Lipsey relayed an account that is different from both the Sibert-O’Neill report, and from the autopsy now present in the Archives, CE 387.” He then stressed the following:

"It is a virtual certainty that the autopsy conclusions he [Richard Lipsey] was privy to were identical with the contents of the first draft of the autopsy which was reviewed by Drs. Humes, Boswell, and [Robert O.] Canada [the commanding officer of the naval medical hospital at Bethesda] on Saturday, November 23rd, and which was destroyed less than twenty four hours later in the fireplace of James J. Humes."

According to Lipsey, sometime after midnight -- and after the two FBI agents had disappeared -- the pathologists declared that JFK had been hit by three shots from behind. That first autopsy draft had concluded that the sole headshot had “entered the back of the head and blew out part of the right side of the skull, creating one large defect that represented both the bullet’s entrance and exit.” It also concluded that a “second bullet entered very high up on the back of the neck, just inside the hairline [i.e., on the back of the head between the hairline and the EOP], and exited from the throat” -- and a “third bullet entered at the bottom of the neck, or high in the back, and did not exit.”

Horne asked a critical question: “Why didn’t the autopsy conclusions, reported by Richard Lipsey, and committed to writing in the first draft of the autopsy report, become the official conclusions?” He elucidated:

"The answer to this question, I believe, is a simple one. By the time Drs. Humes, Boswell, and Canada met and reviewed the draft autopsy report on Saturday, November 23rd, the entire nation, and indeed the world, had become aware that one shot had missed, and had wounded bystander James Tague in the cheek, after striking a curb on Main Street in Dealey Plaza. This account was in the Dallas newspapers Saturday morning, and 'hit the wire' the same day, thus becoming available to newspapers (and radio stations) all across the country. This meant that the autopsy conclusions witnessed by Richard Lipsey could not stand, for the central conclusion reached by the pathologists after midnight was that the President had been hit by three shots.

"It was for this reason that the autopsy conclusions witnessed by Richard Lipsey, and likely memorialized in the first written draft of the autopsy protocol, did not last for even 24 hours. Because any report that postulated that President Kennedy had been hit by three bullets was now contradicted by ‘the facts on the ground.’ James J. Humes destroyed the first draft of the autopsy protocol, along with any notes indicating three shots hit the President, in his fireplace before dawn on Sunday November 24th, 1963. In response to the missed shot that hit James Tague, the autopsy conclusions now evolved back into a two-hit scenario, but one which now accounted for the bullet wound in the anterior neck." [Quoting Doug Horne, Inside the ARRB, Vol. 3, pp. 856-857, 863]

According to Lipsey, sometime after midnight -- and after the two FBI agents had disappeared -- the pathologists declared that JFK had been hit by three shots from behind. That first autopsy draft had concluded that the sole headshot had “entered the back of the head and blew out part of the right side of the skull, creating one large defect that represented both the bullet’s entrance and exit.” It also concluded that a “second bullet entered very high up on the back of the neck, just inside the hairline, and exited from the throat”—and a “third bullet entered at the bottom of the neck, or high in the back, and did not exit.” (The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: The Final Analysis, 2024, pp. 59-61)

MTG remains stuck in neutral. He can't get past the early erroneous observation of "no exit" which the autopsy team abandoned once they opened up the chest as saw that there was a clear trail of tissue damage leading from the back entrance wound to the tracheostomy incision in the throat. When they observed the damaged trachea which was just short of the incision, they only logical conclusion at that point was the bullet had exited there. Of course they would need to confirm that with Dr. Perry which apparently they did. MTG insists they have to stick with the early observation of "no exit" and ignore that trail of tissue damage which led to a much different conclusion than the idea they floated earlier.

As is his custom, MTG turns to the least qualified person in the room to bolster his desired beliefs and ignore what the prosectors discovered during the remaining hours of the autopsy and in their communications with Perry. What an asinine way to analyze the autopsy results but that is what we have come to expect from MTG.

[Michael T. Griffith]

One of the biggest problems with the single-bullet theory (SBT) is that there were far too many bullet fragments in Governor John Connally's body to have come from CE 399.

Although Dr. Charles Gregory later said the fragments removed from Connally's wrist were merely "flakes of metal" and that they weighed less than a postage stamp, there didn't seem to be any question about the wrist fragments in the first hours and days after the shooting. Dr. Gregory's own 11/22/63 Parkland Hospital operative record states that "small bits of metal were encountered at various levels" of the wrist wound, and that "wherever they were identified and could be picked up were picked up and have been submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination" (CE 392; 2 H 375).

This squares with Nurse Audrey Bell's account of the wrist fragments. Nurse Bell was the nurse who handled the bullet fragments that were removed from the governor's wrist. She insisted the fragments were not merely flakes but were identifiable pieces of metal anywhere from 3 to 4 mm in length and about 2 mm wide. 3-4 mm x 2 mm fragments are not large fragments, but they are certainly not flakes either. She said there were four or five fragments of this size removed from the wrist.

This, in turn, squares with the recollection of one of Connally's other surgeons, Dr. Robert Shaw. Interviewed for the award-winning 1988 documentary Reasonable Doubt: The Single-Bullet Theory, Shaw said,

I am sure that the bullet that inflicted these wounds on Governor Connally was fragmented much more than this bullet [CE 399] shows.

Dr. Pierre Finck, the only forensic pathologist at the autopsy, told the WC that CE 399 could not have been the bullet that hit Connally's wrist because there were many fragments described as being in the wrist:

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Finck, have you had an opportunity to examine Commission’s Exhibit 399? . . . And could it have been the bullet which inflicted the wound on Governor Connally’s right wrist?

Colonel FINCK. No; for the reason that there are too many fragments described in that wrist. (2 H 382)

Similarly, Dr. James Humes, the chief pathologist at the autopsy, understood the clear implications of Dr. Gregory's 11/22/63 operative record. Dr. Humes was asked if CE 399 could have been either the missile that struck the head or the one that hit Connally's wrist. He replied in the negative in both cases and cited the operative record as the basis for his conclusion about the wrist bullet, saying he thought it was "most unlikely" that CE 399 could be the bullet that hit the wrist:

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, I show you a bullet which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 399. . . . Now looking at that bullet, Exhibit 399, Doctor Humes, could that bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing through President Kennedy's head in Exhibit No. 388?

Commander HUMES. I do not believe so, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And could that missile have made the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?

Commander HUMES. I think that that is most unlikely. May I expand on those two answers?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do.

Commander HUMES. The X-rays made of the wound in the head of the late President showed fragmentations of the missile. Some fragments we recovered and turned over, as has been previously noted. Also we have X-rays of the fragment of skull which was in the region of our opinion exit wound showing metallic fragments.

Also going to Exhibit 392, the report from Parkland Hospital, the following sentence referring to the examination of the wound of the wrist is found: "Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound, and these were, wherever they were identified and could be picked up, picked up and submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination."

The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations. (2 H 374-375)

Also, we should keep in mind that there were at least two other fragments left in Connally's body: one was left in his chest and another was left in his thigh. Where in the devil could those fragments have come from CE 399?   

Remember, too, that the FBI's Robert Frazier told the WC that CE 399 may not have lost any of its substance, and that at the most it lost less than 4 grains of its substance. To give you some idea of what a microscopic amount of material we're talking about, 4 grains is less than 83/10,000ths of a troy ounce or less than 0.0083 troy ounces.

Finally, notice that Humes acknowledged that CE 399 is "basically intact," and that its jacket "appears  to me to be intact." Recall that Frazier told the WC that CE 399 is only "slightly flattened or twisted" and that this slight damage "is hardly visible unless you look at the base of the bullet and notice it is not round" (3 H 429). Yet this bullet supposedly tore through seven layers of skin, shattered a rib bone, and shattered a distal radius bone.

[John Corbett]

One of the biggest problems with the single-bullet theory (SBT) is that there were far too many bullet fragments in Governor John Connally's body to have come from CE 399.

A lie.

Although Dr. Charles Gregory later said the fragments removed from Connally's wrist were merely "flakes of metal" and that they weighed less than a postage stamp, there didn't seem to be any question about the wrist fragments in the first hours and days after the shooting. Dr. Gregory's own 11/22/63 Parkland Hospital operative record states that "small bits of metal were encountered at various levels" of the wrist wound, and that "wherever they were identified and could be picked up were picked up and have been submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination" (CE 392; 2 H 375).

This squares with Nurse Audrey Bell's account of the wrist fragments. Nurse Bell was the nurse who handled the bullet fragments that were removed from the governor's wrist. She insisted the fragments were not merely flakes but were identifiable pieces of metal anywhere from 3 to 4 mm in length and about 2 mm wide. 3-4 mm x 2 mm fragments are not large fragments, but they are certainly not flakes either. She said there were four or five fragments of this size removed from the wrist.

This, in turn, squares with the recollection of one of Connally's other surgeons, Dr. Robert Shaw. Interviewed for the award-winning 1988 documentary Reasonable Doubt: The Single-Bullet Theory, Shaw said,

I am sure that the bullet that inflicted these wounds on Governor Connally was fragmented much more than this bullet [CE 399] shows.

Shaw was a surgeon, not a ballistics expert but MTG doesn't care.

Dr. Pierre Finck, the only forensic pathologist at the autopsy, told the WC that CE 399 could not have been the bullet that hit Connally's wrist because there were many fragments described as being in the wrist:

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Finck, have you had an opportunity to examine Commission’s Exhibit 399? . . . And could it have been the bullet which inflicted the wound on Governor Connally’s right wrist?

Colonel FINCK. No; for the reason that there are too many fragments described in that wrist. (2 H 382)

Finck was not present at Connally's surgery. How the hell would he know? Did he weigh the fragments and/or CE399? The only way Finck's statement would make sense is if the weight of the fragments plus the weight of CE399 weighed more than an unfired Carcano bullet(160-161 grains).

Similarly, Dr. James Humes, the chief pathologist at the autopsy, understood the clear implications of Dr. Gregory's 11/22/63 operative record. Dr. Humes was asked if CE 399 could have been either the missile that struck the head or the one that hit Connally's wrist. He replied in the negative in both cases and cited the operative record as the basis for his conclusion about the wrist bullet, saying he thought it was "most unlikely" that CE 399 could be the bullet that hit the wrist:

Why would MTG cite Humes when Humes wasn't present at Connally's surgery nor is he a ballistics expert? MTG has never cared about things like that. As long as someone says something that supports his silly narratives, that's good enough for him. No critical thinking involved.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, I show you a bullet which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 399. . . . Now looking at that bullet, Exhibit 399, Doctor Humes, could that bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing through President Kennedy's head in Exhibit No. 388?

Commander HUMES. I do not believe so, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And could that missile have made the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?

Commander HUMES. I think that that is most unlikely. May I expand on those two answers?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do.

Commander HUMES. The X-rays made of the wound in the head of the late President showed fragmentations of the missile. Some fragments we recovered and turned over, as has been previously noted. Also we have X-rays of the fragment of skull which was in the region of our opinion exit wound showing metallic fragments.

Nobody has proposed that CE399 was the headshot.

Also going to Exhibit 392, the report from Parkland Hospital, the following sentence referring to the examination of the wound of the wrist is found: "Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound, and these were, wherever they were identified and could be picked up, picked up and submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination."

The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations. (2 H 374-375)[/font]

Humes was not an expert in ballistics. His pathology work was done primally on patients who had died from cancer or heart ailments, not gunshot wounds.

]

Also, we should keep in mind that there were at least two other fragments left in Connally's body: one was left in his chest and another was left in his thigh. Where in the devil could those fragments have come from CE 399? [/quote[

Still doesn't establish that there were more lead fragments in Connally's body than were missing from CE399.

 

Remember, too, that the FBI's Robert Frazier told the WC that CE 399 may not have lost any of its substance, and that at the most it lost less than 4 grains of its substance. To give you some idea of what a microscopic amount of material we're talking about, 4 grains is less than 83/10,000ths of a troy ounce or less than 0.0083 troy ounces.

The only way to establish if more lead was in Connally's body than was missing from CE399 by weighing both the fragments and CE399. Did anybody do that? Didn't think so.

Finally, notice that Humes acknowledged that CE 399 is "basically intact," and that its jacket "appears  to me to be intact." Recall that Frazier told the WC that CE 399 is only "slightly flattened or twisted" and that this slight damage "is hardly visible unless you look at the base of the bullet and notice it is not round" (3 H 429). Yet this bullet supposedly tore through seven layers of skin, shattered a rib bone, and shattered a distal radius bone.

MTG continues to fall back on the same myths he was hawking back in 1991. The reason  CE399 is flattened at the base and not the nose is because it had tumbled before striking rib or wrist bone. It had also been slowed by passing through two torsos before striking any bone. Not hard to figure out when you weigh all the available information.