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Author Topic: Applying Logic and Critical Thinking to the JFK Assassination  (Read 5130 times)

Online Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Applying Logic and Critical Thinking to the JFK Assassination
« Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 08:11:14 PM »
Oswald's performance on 11/22/1963 proved he was capable of making the shots that killed JFK because the evidence he did that is overwhelming.

LOL! Look up the term "circular reasoning."

The burden of proof is on the CTs to provide the evidence that he was NOT capable of making he shots.

We've done that, in spades. You just won't admit it. Any credible, serious person would acknowledge that Oswald was not capable of performing his alleged feat given the fact that his alleged feat has never been duplicated in any halfway realistic Oswald rifle test. You keep ignoring the fact that virtually everyone who saw him shoot in the Marine Corps and in Russia said he was a poor shot.

A semi-auto like the M1 does automate the chambering of each round after the clip is inserted, but once the round is in the chamber, the fundamentals for making an accurate shot are pretty much the same. Both rifles have significant recoil which will require the shooter to reacquire the target and put the sight on the intended target. A bolt action rifle has the added step of manually operating the bolt to eject the spent round and chamber the next round in the clip.

IOW, you are so blindly biased that you can't even admit the self-evident, demonstrable fact that accurately firing a semi-automatic rifle is easier than accurately firing a bolt-action rifle.

A slow moving target moving almost directly away from the shooter is almost stationary in that there is very little movement in relation to the line of fire.

One, 11 mph is not a "slow moving target." If you ran 100 meters in 20 seconds, that would be 11 mph. 11 mph is a fairly rapid sprint. And you seem to forget that Elm Street sloped downward. I know you're just blindly repeating talking points you've read on lone-gunman sites, but you should have thought about this claim before repeating it.

That would have been true for Oswald's second and third shots but not for his first which is why that shot was by far the most difficult.

I've refuted this nonsense several times, but you just keep repeating it. Among the problems I've noted with this specious argument, I'll repeat the fact that the three Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test missed the head and neck area of the target silhouettes 13 out of 14 times with their second and third shots, even though they were firing at stationary target boards from only 30 feet up.


The effect of firing at greater ranges effectively makes the target smaller. I guess during your critical thinking you failed to take that into account.

Gee, I had no idea! I guess you "failed to take into account" that using a 4-power scope, as Oswald allegedly did, makes targets seem much closer than they are because of the magnification.

Let me see if I can do the arithmetic without a calculator. Oswald had to hit 42 out of 50 shots to qualify. That's an 84% hit rate. When shooting at JFK, he hit his target 2 out or 3 times. That's a hit rate of 67%. Sounds like Oswald was a little sharper when shooting in the USMC, but let's cut him some slack. He was firing with a bolt action rifle.

It would be hard to dream up a worse example of grade-school-level faulty logic and evasion. As I proved in my reply, it is clearly invalid to use Oswald's Marine Corps rifle scores as evidence he could have performed the alleged lone-gunman shooting feat. Yet, here are you are doing exactly that, ignoring all the factors that I listed that show that scoring a 210 in Marine Corps rifle qualification back then would have been far, far, far easier than scoring 2 hits in 3 shots in a max of 11 seconds and scoring both hits in 5.6 seconds. 


When firing from a level position or an elevated position, gravity starts to take effect as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel. The shorter the distance, the less the bullet will drop while in flight.

You really should stop pretending to know anything about marksmanship. 

Oswald's longest shot was 88 yards, so gravity had less effect on his shot.

But it would have had some effect. You might want to read what former Marine Corps sniper Craig Roberts has said about Oswald's alleged shooting feat. Why do you suppose that the most legendary Marine Corps sniper in the modern era, Gunny Carlos Hathcock, scoffed at the idea that Oswald could have done the shooting feat that your side claims he did?

And I see you're still assuming a priori that Oswald fired the shots, yet you refuse to deal with the fact that the ammo that hit JFK's head behaved nothing like the kind of ammo that Oswald allegedly used, that CE 543 could not have fired a bullet during the shooting, that acoustical science shows that at least 4 shots were fired, that a number of eyewitness accounts rule out Oswald being on the sixth-floor during the shooting, etc., etc. 

14 x 4 inch area? I didn't know JFK was a pinhead.

An area 14 inches high and 4 inches wide is hardly a pinhead. And we're actually probably talking about an area only 12-13 inches high, but I'm erring on the side of caution. Go look at the target silhouettes from the WC's rifle test. The WC's three Master-rated riflemen missed a larger area in the head-and-neck region 20 out of 21 times, but you say Oswald hit a smaller area twice in 5.6 seconds.

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:15:55 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Online John Corbett

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Re: Applying Logic and Critical Thinking to the JFK Assassination
« Reply #50 on: Yesterday at 09:35:11 PM »
LOL! Look up the term "circular reasoning."

There is ample forensic proof that Oswald fired the shots that killed JFK that do not require circular reasoning. Of course you will use cockamamie excuses to dismiss each and every one of those pieces of evidence rather than accept the obvious conclusion that Oswald was the assassin.
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We've done that, in spades. You just won't admit it. Any credible, serious person would acknowledge that Oswald was not capable of performing his alleged feat given the fact that his alleged feat has never been duplicated in any halfway realistic Oswald rifle test.

Once again you ignore he fact that shootings cannot be duplicated. Each is unique. It is a preposterous demand the CTs have made for years. I can't even think of another shooting in which somebody even tried to duplicate it. I was juror in a gunshot murder case. The prosecution didn't even try to duplicate the shooting, he defense didn't demand the shooting be duplicated, and we as a jury didn't expect the prosecution to duplicate the shooting to show it was possible. Guess what? We convicted the perp anyway.
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You keep ignoring the fact that virtually everyone who saw him shoot in the Marine Corps and in Russia said he was a poor shot.

Anecdotal evidence. The record says otherwise.
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IOW, you are so blindly biased

It's hilarious that you of all people would hurl that accusation at somebody else.
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that you can't even admit the self-evident, demonstrable fact that accurately firing a semi-automatic rifle is easier than accurately firing a bolt-action rifle.

It's only easier to fire it rapidly. Once the round is chambered, which the semi-auto does for you, the process of making an accurate shot is pretty much the same. The 1903 Springfield rifle and the WWII era semi--auto M1 Garand both fired the same .30-06 round with equal proficiency. Famed Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock used several models of bolt action rifles for his long range kills in the Vietnam War. The sniper's motto is "One shot. One kill". This makes rapid fire unnecessary. Bolt action rifles are plenty accurate.
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One, 11 mph is not a "slow moving target." If you ran 100 meters in 20 seconds, that would be 11 mph.

That's really, really slow.
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11 mph is a fairly rapid sprint.

Are you serious? I'm 74 years old and 50 lbs. overweight and I know I could still run 100 meters in under 20 seconds.
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And you seem to forget that Elm Street sloped downward. I know you're just blindly repeating talking points you've read on lone-gunman sites, but you should have thought about this claim before repeating it.

What the hell difference does that make. 11 mph going downhill isn't any faster than 11 mph on a level surface. They both will take you 11 miles in one hour. The fact that Elm St was sloped actually reduces the amount of relative movement of the target to the line of fire.

The only LN website I remember visiting recently is David Von Pein's and that was to reference his excellent section on the SBT.
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I've refuted this nonsense several times,

In your mind.
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 but you just keep repeating it. Among the problems I've noted with this specious argument, I'll repeat the fact that the three Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test missed the head and neck area of the target silhouettes 13 out of 14 times with their second and third shots, even though they were firing at stationary target boards from only 30 feet up.

How fast were they firing?
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Gee, I had no idea! I guess you "failed to take into account" that using a 4-power scope, as Oswald allegedly did, makes targets seem much closer than they are because of the magnification.

Yes it does. So what's your point?
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It would be hard to dream up a worse example of grade-school-level faulty logic and evasion. As I proved in my reply,

The only thing you ever prove in your replies is that you are really, really bad at critical thinking.
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it is clearly invalid to use Oswald's Marine Corps rifle scores as evidence he could have performed the alleged lone-gunman shooting feat.

It is the CTs who try to use Oswald's USMC scores to prove he couldn't. They fail miserably in their effort. He had to hit targets at much longer ranges to achieve he scores he did, even at is lower score of 191. His best score of 212 was only 2 points lower than Charles Whitman's USMC score and he killed about a dozen people from higher up and at longer ranges than Oswald.
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The LN position is that the forensic evidence clearly proves Oswald was the shooter in Dealey Plaza. That is all that is needed to prove he could do the shooting. I guess logic isn't your strong suit either.
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Yet, here are you are doing exactly that, ignoring all the factors that I listed that show that scoring a 210 in Marine Corps rifle qualification back then would have been far, far, far easier than scoring 2 hits in 3 shots in a max of 11 seconds and scoring both hits in 5.6 seconds.

You've claimed that absent any reasoning or logic.
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You really should stop pretending to know anything about marksmanship.

I'll gladly put my knowledge up against yours any day.
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But it would have had some effect. You might want to read what former Marine Corps sniper Craig Roberts has said about Oswald's alleged shooting feat. Why do you suppose that the most legendary Marine Corps sniper in the modern era, Gunny Carlos Hathcock, scoffed at the idea that Oswald could have done the shooting feat that your side claims he did?

There is no record of Hathcock saying that. I see no reason to think Hathcock who had a record kill shot of 2500 hundred yards couldn't have made a kill shot at 88 yards in his sleep. He once shot out the scope of a North Vietnamese sniper's scope at 800 yards only being able to see the sun reflecting off the scope. He aimed at the center of the reflection. He later said he could have only made that shot if the other sniper had Hathcock in his scope. Hathcock squeezed off his round just in time. In fact at a range of 800 yards, there was a real possibility they could have killed each other with their bullets passing each other in flight.
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And I see you're still assuming a priori that Oswald fired the shots,

That's not an assumption. An assumption is a conclusion made in absence of evidence. There is overwhelming evidence that Oswald was the shooter, even if you invent silly excuses to dismiss that evidence.
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 yet you refuse to deal with the fact that the ammo that hit JFK's head behaved nothing like the kind of ammo that Oswald allegedly used,

BS.
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that CE 543 could not have fired a bullet during the shooting,

More BS.
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that acoustical science shows that at least 4 shots were fired,

High tech BS.
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that a number of eyewitness accounts rule out Oswald being on the sixth-floor during the shooting, etc., etc. 

The fact that you think eyewitness accounts can prove anything shows just how bad your are at critical thinking. Eyewitness accounts don't prove or disprove anything unless you can prove through corroborating evidence that the eyewitnesses are correct. Eyewitness accounts are the least reliable form of evidence our courts will accept which is why when a judge instructs a jury, they are told to weigh such testimony for credibility.
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An area 14 inches high and 4 inches wide is hardly a pinhead. And we're actually probably talking about an area only 12-13 inches high, but I'm erring on the side of caution. Go look at the target silhouettes from the WC's rifle test. The WC's three Master-rated riflemen missed a larger area in the head-and-neck region 20 out of 21 times, but you say Oswald hit a smaller area twice in 5.6 seconds.

Just how wide do you think JFK's head was? How broad was his torso?