JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Dr. E. Forrest Chapman
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Jack Nessan on June 12, 2026, 04:31:51 AM ---I am sure they would have heard one. Not one person, crowd or cars, reacted to anything at Z150 or whatever it is this week. Maybe it is time to update from this failed theory.
--- End quote ---
JBC reacted. Glen Bennett reacted. Most people reported hearing 3 shots. Because that shot didn't hit anybody (except maybe Tague), many people did not realize it was a gunshot. At first some said they thought it was a firecracker or a motorcycle backfire. Charles Brehm can be seen in the Z-film clapping his hands even after JFK had been hit by the second shot, apparently oblivious to the fact JFK had just been shot. There is a wide disparity how people perceived that first shot. Some didn't even remember hearing the first shot and only remember hearing two, but the consensus of witnesses is that there were three which matches the number of spent shells found in the sniper's nest. Jarman, Norman, and Williams who were directly below Oswald when the shots were fired all testified to hearing three shots. Jarman and Williams both said they thought the first shot was a motorcycle backfire or a cop saluting the President.
Charles Collins:
Apparently, the dented cartridge neck is a fairly common issue and has a straightforward cause:
Question to Google AI:
on a Carcano M38 rifle can the extractor, if the bolt is pulled back very quickly and forcefully, begin the ejection process of the empty case prematurely?
Google AI answer:
No. The Carcano's extractor is designed as a spring-tensioned claw that firmly grips the casing rim. It holds the cartridge securely during the entire rearward travel of the bolt until it hits the fixed ejector.Here is why premature ejection does not occur:Controlled Push: The fixed ejector (a rigid metal tongue inside the receiver) requires the bolt to be pulled all the way to the rear before it can physically strike the casing and flip it out of the ejection port.Extractor Limits: Even if you pull the bolt with extreme force, the extractor maintains its grip until the bolt reaches the end of its stroke. Forceful, rapid cycling will typically just result in a more energetic and reliable ejection, rather than a premature one.What might feel like premature ejection is often a worn extractor spring, a damaged extractor claw, or damaged casing rims (usually caused by poor-quality reproduction en-bloc clips).If you are experiencing cycling issues, tell me more about what is happening:Does the empty case drop out of the action before clearing the port, or fail to leave the chamber at all?Is the issue happening with live rounds or spent brass?Knowing this can help determine if it is a feed issue, an extractor failure, or a dirty chamber.
You said: the cartridge neck gets dented during the ejection process:
Dented cartridge necks are caused by the brass slamming into the receiver wall as it flips out of the action. Pulling the bolt back very quickly and forcefully makes this problem much worse because it dramatically increases the rotational speed of the cartridge during ejection.
Accurate Shooter +2The Mechanics of the Carcano DentWhen you cycle a Carcano M38 rifle, the bolt face moves backwards until the rim of the cartridge hits the rigid, fixed ejector. This impact creates a pivot point:The extractor claw holds the right side of the rim.The fixed ejector pushes the left side forward.This combined force violently swings the front of the cartridge case to the right to clear the receiver. If you pull the bolt back with extreme speed, the cartridge pivots with so much momentum that the hot, pliable brass neck is whipped directly into the right edge of the receiver bridge or the ejection port opening. The metal-on-metal impact leaves a characteristic flat spot or crescent-shaped dent right at the case mouth.
Accurate Shooter +1How to Fix or Prevent ItModerate Your Force: The most straightforward solution is to pull the bolt back with a smooth, deliberate motion rather than a violent yank. You only need enough speed to clear the port, not maximum velocity. Buffer the Receiver: If you want to cycle quickly without ruining your brass, place a small strip of electrical tape, painters tape, or the soft side of adhesive velcro on the right side of the receiver where the brass strikes. This cushions the blow and stops the denting. Inspect the Extractor: If the problem occurs even during slow extraction, check the extractor hook for burrs or sharp edges. A malformed extractor can grip the rim unevenly, throwing off the intended angle of ejection.
Charles Collins:
--- Quote from: Charles Collins on June 12, 2026, 12:36:51 PM ---Apparently, the dented cartridge neck is a fairly common issue and has a straightforward cause:
Question to Google AI:
on a Carcano M38 rifle can the extractor, if the bolt is pulled back very quickly and forcefully, begin the ejection process of the empty case prematurely?
Google AI answer:
No. The Carcano's extractor is designed as a spring-tensioned claw that firmly grips the casing rim. It holds the cartridge securely during the entire rearward travel of the bolt until it hits the fixed ejector.Here is why premature ejection does not occur:Controlled Push: The fixed ejector (a rigid metal tongue inside the receiver) requires the bolt to be pulled all the way to the rear before it can physically strike the casing and flip it out of the ejection port.Extractor Limits: Even if you pull the bolt with extreme force, the extractor maintains its grip until the bolt reaches the end of its stroke. Forceful, rapid cycling will typically just result in a more energetic and reliable ejection, rather than a premature one.What might feel like premature ejection is often a worn extractor spring, a damaged extractor claw, or damaged casing rims (usually caused by poor-quality reproduction en-bloc clips).If you are experiencing cycling issues, tell me more about what is happening:Does the empty case drop out of the action before clearing the port, or fail to leave the chamber at all?Is the issue happening with live rounds or spent brass?Knowing this can help determine if it is a feed issue, an extractor failure, or a dirty chamber.
You said: the cartridge neck gets dented during the ejection process:
Dented cartridge necks are caused by the brass slamming into the receiver wall as it flips out of the action. Pulling the bolt back very quickly and forcefully makes this problem much worse because it dramatically increases the rotational speed of the cartridge during ejection.
Accurate Shooter +2The Mechanics of the Carcano DentWhen you cycle a Carcano M38 rifle, the bolt face moves backwards until the rim of the cartridge hits the rigid, fixed ejector. This impact creates a pivot point:The extractor claw holds the right side of the rim.The fixed ejector pushes the left side forward.This combined force violently swings the front of the cartridge case to the right to clear the receiver. If you pull the bolt back with extreme speed, the cartridge pivots with so much momentum that the hot, pliable brass neck is whipped directly into the right edge of the receiver bridge or the ejection port opening. The metal-on-metal impact leaves a characteristic flat spot or crescent-shaped dent right at the case mouth.
Accurate Shooter +1How to Fix or Prevent ItModerate Your Force: The most straightforward solution is to pull the bolt back with a smooth, deliberate motion rather than a violent yank. You only need enough speed to clear the port, not maximum velocity. Buffer the Receiver: If you want to cycle quickly without ruining your brass, place a small strip of electrical tape, painters tape, or the soft side of adhesive velcro on the right side of the receiver where the brass strikes. This cushions the blow and stops the denting. Inspect the Extractor: If the problem occurs even during slow extraction, check the extractor hook for burrs or sharp edges. A malformed extractor can grip the rim unevenly, throwing off the intended angle of ejection.
--- End quote ---
Combine the above AI answers with the HSCA testimony from the link that Lance posted earlier in this thread, and I believe we have the answer as to how the dent in CE 543 most likely occurred.
Mr. MCDONALD. Are you saying then when your panel test fired
CE-139, out of four fired cartridges, one was ejected with a dented
mouth? Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Yes, sir, that occurred during the ejection proc-
ess in firing the weapon.
If I may.
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, please.
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. The ejection is that process whereby the bolt
handle is moved to the rear to eject the expended cartridge case,
ejecting the cartridge case out of the weapon.
Mr. MCDONALD. Now, when you tested the rifle, the panel tested
the rifle, ofyour panel members, who ejected the shell or cartridge
case that came out with the dent?
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Mr. Lutz.
Mr. MCDONALD. Would Mr. Lutz please come forward and dem-
onstrate to us how you ejected to cause a dent in the test cartridge
case. Mr. LUTZ. The particular amount of force that I used to extract
and eject the cartridge case from the weapon was much in the
manner that I would consider to be employed during anattempt to
rapidly fire the firearm. The cartridge was fired with the bolt being
closed and then with considerable speed and pressure being ap-
plied, opening it and pulling the bolt to the rear and holding it to
my side, and in a manner very rapidly, kicking the cartridge back
and ejecting the cartridge and causing it fall to the floor.
Mr. PREYER. Mr. Edgar.
Mr. EDGAR. Mr. Lutz, would you turn so we can see it.
Mr. LUTZ. In this manner, where I have grasped the bolt for-
ward, the cartridge had been fired, moved away from the firing
tube holding the bolt handle and then pulling it back with a
violent move duplicating what I deemed to be a rapid sequence of
firing, operating the handle to rapid sequence of
firing, operating the handle to rapidly fire the firearm.
Lance Payette:
Just to state the obvious: The dent and the firing pin impression are two different issues. The dent is WHY CE 543 would have been used as a dry-firing round. It couldn't be reloaded and had no value.
John Corbett:
What Lutz's demonstration showed is that a spent shell could be dented when rapidly ejected from the rifle. It's a little unreasonable to expect Lutz to replicate the exact amount of force Oswald did and produce the same dent.
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