What about that dent?

[Michael T. Griffith]

ME: Were any of the shells that were found in the "Sniper's Nest" on 11/22/63 dented? If so, does it present a problem for the official conclusion of the Warren Commission?

Thought for 23s

GROK: Yes, one of the three spent cartridge cases (shells) found in the "sniper's nest" on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository had a dent. The three cases recovered by Dallas police on November 22, 1963, were designated as Warren Commission Exhibits (CE) 543, 544, and 545. CE 543 had a noticeable inward dent on the mouth (the open lip where the bullet had been seated).

educationforum.ipbhost.com +1

This dent has been documented in photographs taken at the scene (and later in Commission exhibits) and was examined by the FBI and, later, the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) Firearms Panel. The other two cases (CE 544 and CE 545) were undamaged in this way.

aarclibrary.org

No, this does not present a problem for the Warren Commission's official conclusion (that Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots from a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in the sniper's nest, with the three cartridge cases ejected from that rifle). The Warren Commission itself relied on FBI ballistic analysis showing that all three cases had been fired in Oswald's rifle (CE 139), based on matching firing-pin impressions, extractor marks, and bolt-face marks.

archives.gov

The dent on CE 543 prompted criticism from some researchers, who argued it was so severe that the case could not have held a live bullet beforehand (implying it could not have been one of the three shots fired during the assassination, or that the case was planted or previously damaged).

jfk.boards.net +1

However, the HSCA Firearms Panel (a team of independent firearms experts) directly addressed this in 1977–1978.

They concluded:

The dent on the mouth of CE 543 was produced during ejection from the rifle (specifically, from rapid operation of the bolt/ejector mechanism), not before firing or from manufacturing/loading.

They duplicated an identical dent in test firings with Oswald’s rifle (one of four test cases showed a comparable dent when the bolt was worked quickly).
Microscopic comparison confirmed that all three cases (including the dented CE 543) were fired in the CE 139 rifle, with no evidence of multiple chamberings or prior firings.

aarclibrary.org +1

The panel explicitly rejected the idea that the dent would have prevented the case from being fired in the rifle (or any rifle).

ronaldjlilek.medium.com

The Warren Commission (1964) did not dwell on the dent as an issue—the FBI’s initial matching of the cases to the rifle was sufficient for their conclusion of three shots from the sniper’s nest. The later HSCA analysis reinforced this by resolving the dent question through direct experimentation. While some conspiracy-oriented analyses continue to dispute the replication or point to minor chain-of-custody details (e.g., CE 543 was turned over to the FBI a few days later than the others), the official forensic examinations found the dent fully consistent with the three-shot scenario.

documents3.theblackvault.com

In short, the dent is real and well-documented, but it has been explained as post-firing ejection damage and does not contradict (or undermine) the Warren Commission’s ballistics findings or lone-gunman conclusion.

It is sad, and really inexcusable, to see anyone repeating these long-since debunked claims. The dented shell, CE 543, is hard evidence of conspiracy because the shell could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination.

No, the HSCA firearms experts did not duplicate the CE 543 dent in any of their test shells. Anyone can look at the shells they produced and see that they are not nearly as dented as CE 543. The same goes for Chad Zimmerman's supposed duplication of the dent in CE 543.

A few other important facts:

-- CE 543 has three sets of marks on the base that are not found on the two other shells and that were not made on any of the numerous shells that were ejected from the alleged murder weapon during firing tests.

-- CE 543 does not have the characteristic chambering impression along the side exhibited by the other cartridges we know to have been seated in the chamber of the alleged murder weapon, i.e.,, CE 544 and CE 545, and also CE 141 (the live round found in the chamber of the rifle. The impression on CE 141 is in the same location but is not as pronounced as on CEs 544 and 545, almost certainly due to the fact that it was not fired.

-- CE 543 could not have been marked by the alleged murder weapon’s magazine follower during the assassination because there was a live round left in the rifle’s chamber and only the last shell in the clip is marked by the magazine follower. This fact alone discredits the HSCA firearms experts' claims about the dented shell, as research scientist Dr. Don Thomas has explained:

Furthermore, according to the FBI experts, the casing had been marked by the magazine follower. This fact is especially relevant because only the last cartridge in the clip is marked by the magazine follower, and inasmuch as the Oswald rifle still had one live round in the chamber, CE 543 could not have been marked by the magazine follower as an operation of the rifle during the assassination. The failure of the HSCA Firearms Panel to disclose or discuss the discrepancy between their conclusion and the FBI findings forces the conclusion that the Firearms Panel analysis of this problem was less than forthright and certainly less than thorough. (Hear No Evil: Politics, Science, and the Forensic Evidence in the Kennedy Assassination, New York: Skyhorse Publishing, 2010, p. 141)

I discuss the dented shell at length in my book A Comforting Lie: They Myth That a Lone Gunman Killed President Kennedy. A condensed version of that discussion is available on my website:

The Dented Bullet Shell: Hard Evidence of Conspiracy in the JFK Assassination
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ihue8a0GmN_Ptl38bPjpu1F99nqU0Z6f/view

[Lance Payette]

MTG: "Because if that cartridge case could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have been more than one gunman."

Dented shell: Dry firing round in the chamber of the disassembled M-C in Ruth Paine's garage. JFKA: Two shots. Case closed. You're welcome.

Helpful freebie advice: I notice MTG's paper says "@ All Rights Reserved." Obviously "@" is incorrect and looks goofy. The copyright symbol may be found on your keyboard by holding the Alt key and typing 0169 on the numeric keyboard, to wit:

© 2022 Michael T. Griffith. All rights reserved.

There, now you don't look like a goofball. Actually, none of that is necessary. Copyright protection is automatic. You do need to register the copyright to sue for infringement, but you can do that just before you sue and there is little risk of anyone even wanting to infringe your work anyway. I did some copyright and trademark work when I was an in-house attorney at Xerox. Anyone want to hear about the Berne Convention?

[John Corbett]

MTG: "Because if that cartridge case could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have been more than one gunman."

Dented shell: Dry firing round in the chamber of the disassembled M-C in Ruth Paine's garage. JFKA: Two shots. Case closed. You're welcome.

Helpful freebie advice: I notice MTG's paper says "@ All Rights Reserved." Obviously "@" is incorrect and looks goofy. The copyright symbol may be found on your keyboard by holding the Alt key and typing 0169 on the numeric keyboard, to wit:

© 2022 Michael T. Griffith. All rights reserved.

There, now you don't look like a goofball. Actually, none of that is necessary. Copyright protection is automatic. You do need to register the copyright to sue for infringement, but you can do that just before you sue and there is little risk of anyone even wanting to infringe your work anyway. I did some copyright and trademark work when I was an in-house attorney at Xerox. Anyone want to hear about the Berne Convention?

A two shot scenario is akin to the likelihood Oswald had accomplices, theoretcially possible but highly unlikely.

[Michael T. Griffith]

MTG: "Because if that cartridge case could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have been more than one gunman."

Dented shell: Dry firing round in the chamber of the disassembled M-C in Ruth Paine's garage. JFKA: Two shots. Case closed. You're welcome.

The scenario of anyone dry-firing a round in a disassembled rifle seems like quite a stretch to begin with.

Anyway, it seems you simply did not grasp the fact that CE 543 could not have been chambered in the alleged murder weapon because it does not have the characteristic chambering impression that we see on CE 141 (and also on CEs 544 and 545). The impression on CE 141 is in the same location as the impression on CEs 544 and 545, but is not as pronounced because it was not fired. If CE 543 had been dry-fired in the alleged murder weapon, or had been fired during the assassination, it would have that same chambering impression on its side, but it does not.

Beyond this fact, if CE 543 was dry-fired in Ruth Paine's garage, how in the world did it end up on the floor of the sixth-floor sniper's nest? 

A two-shot lone-gunman scenario is absurd. We have the curb shot that sprayed concrete and cut Tague's face. We have the shot that scraped the curb near the manhole cover on Elm Street and then burrowed in the grass near the manhole cover and was seen and reported by a police officer. We have the pre-Z190 shot that numerous witnesses saw strike the pavement near JFK's limo. We have the pre-Z313 hit on JFK and the pre-Z313 hit on Connally. And we have the Z313 head shot. BTW, the Zapruder film shows reactions to six shots:

Reactions to Six Shots in the Zapruder Film
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nnp3Vch_KMOB_qufAhlQOCLTTS9jqNV0/view

See also:

Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in Dealey Plaza
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRwhDQ9HMydf5pICsHwgtkoNKw0YSO8T/view

Tom Graves: As for your repetition of the standard lone-gunman arguments against the HSCA's acoustical evidence, apparently you are unaware that new testing done by BBN scientists in 2019-2020 proves that the acoustical evidence is valid, that the Decker crosstalk is merely an overdub that occurred during the copying process, and that the Fisher "I'll check" transmission is genuine crosstalk, which proves that the gunshot impulses on the tape occurred during the assassination.

Here are the major points of the acoustical evidence:

* At least four sets of gunshot impulse patterns with echo patterns unique to Dealey Plaza occur on the dictabelt recording. This was confirmed by two separate groups of acoustical scientists.

* The gunshot impulse patterns occur on the dictabelt recording at the time of the shooting, and nowhere else on the recording.

* The echo patterns indicate that the microphone (i.e., the motorcycle with the stuck mike) was moving at nearly the same average speed at which we know JFK’s limousine was moving on Elm Street. The open-mike motorcycle was moving at an average speed of 11.7 mph during the shooting. The limousine was moving at an average speed of 11.3 mph on Elm Street.

* Remarkable timing-movement correlations were found between the dictabelt gunshots and the test-firing gunshots. The BBN scientists determined that the probability that chance caused these correlations was “less than 1%.” Even the NRC panel admitted that their own calculations showed there was a 93% probability that the correlations were not the result of chance.

* The dictabelt contains N-waves from supersonic rifle fire, and those N-waves occur only among the identified gunshot impulse patterns, and only in the two impulse patterns that were recorded when the motorcycle’s microphone was in position to record them.

* The dictabelt not only contains N-waves but it also contains muzzle blasts and muzzle-blast echoes, and those N-waves, muzzle blasts, and muzzle-blast echoes occur in the correct order and interval.

* Windshield distortions occur in the dictabelt's gunshot impulse patterns when they should and do not occur when they should not.

I again suggest you read my article on the acoustical evidence:

The HSCA’s Acoustical Evidence: Proof of a Second Gunman
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KvdvH8gTqFgMn-2vTI5ppg_egWxRKg9U/view

[Lance Payette]

Not dry-firing in a disassembled rifle. Leaving it there for convenience because mostly what he did with the rifle was dry-fire it. It was simply there when he repackaged the disassembled rifle and took it into the TSBD.

[Jack Nessan]

The scenario of anyone dry-firing a round in a disassembled rifle seems like quite a stretch to begin with.

Anyway, it seems you simply did not grasp the fact that CE 543 could not have been chambered in the alleged murder weapon because it does not have the characteristic chambering impression that we see on CE 141 (and also on CEs 544 and 545). The impression on CE 141 is in the same location as the impression on CEs 544 and 545, but is not as pronounced because it was not fired. If CE 543 had been dry-fired in the alleged murder weapon, or had been fired during the assassination, it would have that same chambering impression on its side, but it does not.

Beyond this fact, if CE 543 was dry-fired in Ruth Paine's garage, how in the world did it end up on the floor of the sixth-floor sniper's nest? 

A two-shot lone-gunman scenario is absurd. We have the curb shot that sprayed concrete and cut Tague's face. We have the shot that scraped the curb near the manhole cover on Elm Street and then burrowed in the grass near the manhole cover and was seen and reported by a police officer. We have the pre-Z190 shot that numerous witnesses saw strike the pavement near JFK's limo. We have the pre-Z313 hit on JFK and the pre-Z313 hit on Connally. And we have the Z313 head shot. BTW, the Zapruder film shows reactions to six shots:

Reactions to Six Shots in the Zapruder Film
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nnp3Vch_KMOB_qufAhlQOCLTTS9jqNV0/view

See also:

Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in Dealey Plaza
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRwhDQ9HMydf5pICsHwgtkoNKw0YSO8T/view

Tom Graves: As for your repetition of the standard lone-gunman arguments against the HSCA's acoustical evidence, apparently you are unaware that new testing done by BBN scientists in 2019-2020 proves that the acoustical evidence is valid, that the Decker crosstalk is merely an overdub that occurred during the copying process, and that the Fisher "I'll check" transmission is genuine crosstalk, which proves that the gunshot impulses on the tape occurred during the assassination.

Here are the major points of the acoustical evidence:

* At least four sets of gunshot impulse patterns with echo patterns unique to Dealey Plaza occur on the dictabelt recording. This was confirmed by two separate groups of acoustical scientists.

* The gunshot impulse patterns occur on the dictabelt recording at the time of the shooting, and nowhere else on the recording.

* The echo patterns indicate that the microphone (i.e., the motorcycle with the stuck mike) was moving at nearly the same average speed at which we know JFK’s limousine was moving on Elm Street. The open-mike motorcycle was moving at an average speed of 11.7 mph during the shooting. The limousine was moving at an average speed of 11.3 mph on Elm Street.

* Remarkable timing-movement correlations were found between the dictabelt gunshots and the test-firing gunshots. The BBN scientists determined that the probability that chance caused these correlations was “less than 1%.” Even the NRC panel admitted that their own calculations showed there was a 93% probability that the correlations were not the result of chance.

* The dictabelt contains N-waves from supersonic rifle fire, and those N-waves occur only among the identified gunshot impulse patterns, and only in the two impulse patterns that were recorded when the motorcycle’s microphone was in position to record them.

* The dictabelt not only contains N-waves but it also contains muzzle blasts and muzzle-blast echoes, and those N-waves, muzzle blasts, and muzzle-blast echoes occur in the correct order and interval.

* Windshield distortions occur in the dictabelt's gunshot impulse patterns when they should and do not occur when they should not.

I again suggest you read my article on the acoustical evidence:

The HSCA’s Acoustical Evidence: Proof of a Second Gunman
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KvdvH8gTqFgMn-2vTI5ppg_egWxRKg9U/view

Anyway, it seems you simply did not grasp the fact that CE 543 could not have been chambered in the alleged murder weapon because it does not have the characteristic chambering impression that we see on CE 141 (and also on CEs 544 and 545). The impression on CE 141 is in the same location as the impression on CEs 544 and 545, but is not as pronounced because it was not fired. If CE 543 had been dry-fired in the alleged murder weapon, or had been fired during the assassination, it would have that same chambering impression on its side, but it does not.
 
Beyond this fact, if CE 543 was dry-fired in Ruth Paine's garage, how in the world did it end up on the floor of the sixth-floor sniper's nest? 
 
A two-shot lone-gunman scenario is absurd. We have the curb shot that sprayed concrete and cut Tague's face. We have the shot that scraped the curb near the manhole cover on Elm Street and then burrowed in the grass near the manhole cover and was seen and reported by a police officer. We have the pre-Z190 shot that numerous witnesses saw strike the pavement near JFK's limo. We have the pre-Z313 hit on JFK and the pre-Z313 hit on Connally. And we have the Z313 head shot. BTW, the Zapruder film shows reactions to six shots:


Is this all part of the same poor understanding of the JFKA that is represented in your medical analysis and continuously demonstrated in your posts.

CE 543 was matched to the rifle and noted by several firearms experts as having been dryfired. Maybe write a paper on how the evidence in the JFKA always seems to escape your simple minded understanding.

 

[Jack Nessan]

A two shot scenario is akin to the likelihood Oswald had accomplices, theoretcially possible but highly unlikely.

Any breakthrough on proving your early missed shot fantasy yet? A rifle shot described by the HSCA Sound Analysis as being too loud to miss, is missed by all the eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza and you are totally OK with that belief. Unbelievable.