Hypothetical question

[Zeon Mason]

The simple fact is that a bullet fired from the sniper's nest through JFK's upper torso and exiting from his throat could not have missed JBC. He was directly in the line of fire. Had he not been turned slightly to his right when the bullet struck, it's likely he would have been hit more toward the center of his back, probably just right of his spine. The single bullet was inevitable given where the bullet entered and exited from JFK.

As I understand  it , Andrew’s Z190 shot hitting JC in his left thigh without going thru his torso is because the angle of the limo (and hence JFKs back)  on the road at Z190 is more to the left of the TSBD shooter than at Z224.

But even with that, JC has to have his left leg turned to his left while he keeps his upper body and shoulders turned at least 45 rightward such that the bullet goes past his left shoulder.

Theoretically , maybe this is possible , however until some serious 3D computer modeling is done like Myers did, it remains doubtful. 

My major question about a Z190 shot hitting JC in left inner thigh is if the bullet buried deeply into his thigh or not?

If it did then any flakes of metal removed from JCs thigh must be CE 399 because supposedly that bullet hit JC in the wrist and the metal flakes left in his wrist were from CE 399.

Thus Z190 cannot be CE 399 since Z190 does not hit JCs right hand.

If the Z190 bullet does not remain in JCs thigh, then how much was it slowed down from tangentially grazing it? It’s hitting at 1500 ft/sec after being slowed by JFK, so depending how much thigh muscle slows it down, it’s still probably traveling at least 900 ft/ sec after that.

And that Z190 bullet coming in at that downward angle it’s got no place to go after striking JCs inner thigh except THRU the front seat probably on the middle of the seat. This might be theoretically possible but there does not appear to be (in the limo photos)  a hole in the seat.

It’s too bad they did not preserve the limo for future analysis.

[John Corbett]

As I understand  it , Andrew’s Z190 shot hitting JC in his left thigh without going thru his torso is because the angle of the limo (and hence JFKs back)  on the road at Z190 is more to the left of the TSBD shooter than at Z224.

But even with that, JC has to have his left leg turned to his left while he keeps his upper body and shoulders turned at least 45 rightward such that the bullet goes past his left shoulder.

Theoretically , maybe this is possible , however until some serious 3D computer modeling is done like Myers did, it remains doubtful. 

My major question about a Z190 shot hitting JC in left inner thigh is if the bullet buried deeply into his thigh or not?

If it did then any flakes of metal removed from JCs thigh must be CE 399 because supposedly that bullet hit JC in the wrist and the metal flakes left in his wrist were from CE 399.

Thus Z190 cannot be CE 399 since Z190 does not hit JCs right hand.

If the Z190 bullet does not remain in JCs thigh, then how much was it slowed down from tangentially grazing it? It’s hitting at 1500 ft/sec after being slowed by JFK, so depending how much thigh muscle slows it down, it’s still probably traveling at least 900 ft/ sec after that.

And that Z190 bullet coming in at that downward angle it’s got no place to go after striking JCs inner thigh except THRU the front seat probably on the middle of the seat. This might be theoretically possible but there does not appear to be (in the limo photos)  a hole in the seat.

It’s too bad they did not preserve the limo for future analysis.

The angle of the limo didn't change that much from Z190 to Z220. That's less than 2 seconds and the car had just come out of a very sharp turn that would have forced it to slow down. While the change in angle would have turned JBC's thigh farther left in relation to JFK, it also would have moved his torso farther left making it even less likely the bullet exiting JFK's throat would have gone to the left of JBC's torso. 

Another problem with a Z190 shot is Oswald would have had to fire through the tree. Why would he do that when waiting just over one second would give him a clear shot. Now only would his view of his target have been obscured, firing through the trees raised the possibility of the shot being deflected by a branch. Even a minor deflection could cause a miss.

In short, there isn't much about Andrew's theory that makes much sense to anyone but Andrew.

[Andrew Mason]

The angle of the limo didn't change that much from Z190 to Z220. That's less than 2 seconds and the car had just come out of a very sharp turn that would have forced it to slow down. While the change in angle would have turned JBC's thigh farther left in relation to JFK, it also would have moved his torso farther left making it even less likely the bullet exiting JFK's throat would have gone to the left of JBC's torso. 

I am having difficulty understanding how the position of the car along Elm St. changes the relative positions of the two men.  The horizontal angle of the bullet trajectory to the car direction is greater at z190 than at z220. At z193 it is about 17 degrees:


It is less at z220 because it is farther down the road and the road curves a bit farther left.  I put it at about 10 degrees:



So at z193 the bullet moves farther left over the 24” or  2 feet between JFK’s neck exit wound and the back of the jumpseat by 24tan17=7 inches. If JFK was pressed against the side of the car the bullet would have exited about 8 inches left of the inside wall of the car beside JFK. JBC’s back was not pressed against the back of his seat at z193 and he was turned right. If his left shoulder was 6” forward of the seat back the bullet would move an additional 2 inches farther left.  The thigh would be another 12” farther forward so a bullet would have moved another 4 inches farther left before reaching the thigh: total 13 inches left of JFK’s exit wound.

Another problem with a Z190 shot is Oswald would have had to fire through the tree. Why would he do that when waiting just over one second would give him a clear shot. Now only would his view of his target have been obscured, firing through the trees raised the possibility of the shot being deflected by a branch. Even a minor deflection could cause a miss.

JFK was clear of the tree when he was just past the lamp post and not yet up to the Thornton sign. He was visible at all times as he passed under the tree.  This is evident from the Secret Service film:

[John Corbett]

Give it up, Andrew. It doesn't work. Never did. Never will. 'nuff said.

[Zeon Mason]

Well I looked at Norman’s WC testimony again and I have to say that imo he does NOT support a  2nd shot at Z224 because:

A. He described that at the time he heard the first shot, that he saw JFK with his right hand raised. That’s about at Z190 when JFKs right hand was FULLY raised and JFK is looking right to the max degree. I think his right arm starts to move at about Z175 but is not fully up until Z190.

B. Norman said he  then saw JFK  slump and only AFTER that slump  did Norman hear the next 2 shots which according to an earlier statement he made , were in only approx 2 seconds.

So… there are only  two 3 shot sequence proposals that Norman supports. One is Andrew’s Z190/270/313 and the other one is Dans 1st shot at Z224 theory , 2nd shot Z313 and a 3rd shot fired After Z313 in only 2 seconds which was the one which hit the curb near Tague.

Dans Z224 1st shot fits well enough with Norman  seeing JFK hand raised at Z190 and hearing a shot as it’s only about 1.5 sec after that at Z224.

The Z224 1st shot is supported by lack of any SS agents looking back from Z133 to Z207. Hickeys movement at Z 143 looking forward left ( and down) is NOT a response to a gunshot since he said he had looked BACK at TSBD when he heard the first shot.

Andrew’s is the more controversial theory. The bullets have to deflect more and fragment more and the Z190 shot is thru the tree foliage. The movements of JFK and JC from Z224-Z230 must be considered delayed reactions. Z190 however, does fit with the Willis girl reaction and Betzner not hearing a shot until after his Z186 photo taken.

Dans Z224 1st theory makes a lot of sense in explaining lack of reactions of not only the SS agents but people all along the road beside the limo such as Charles Brehm and 2 guys clapping and a woman walking calmly across the plaza green in the background.

The one questionable shot is a 3rd shot fired rapidly in just 2 secs , apparently UNaimed. It’s questionable if it’s a bolt action rifle why the shooter would have lost his target or why he would  fire a 3rd shot at all since he must have seen that he scored the hit at Z313.

What makes the least sense is the conventional WC theory that the 1st shot missed the entire limo and that it was fired at Z124, or Z140 deflecting off a light pole, or at Z150.,Z160, or Z170. None of those are in keeping with a 3/4th majority witness hearing 3 shots rapidly fired and the last 2 “back to back”.

[John Corbett]

Well I looked at Norman’s WC testimony again and I have to say that imo he does NOT support a  2nd shot at Z224 because:

A. He described that at the time he heard the first shot, that he saw JFK with his right hand raised. That’s about at Z190 when JFKs right hand was FULLY raised and JFK is looking right to the max degree. I think his right arm starts to move at about Z175 but is not fully up until Z190.

B. Norman said he  then saw JFK  slump and only AFTER that slump  did Norman hear the next 2 shots which according to an earlier statement he made , were in only approx 2 seconds.

So… there are only  two 3 shot sequence proposals that Norman supports. One is Andrew’s Z190/270/313 and the other one is Dans 1st shot at Z224 theory , 2nd shot Z313 and a 3rd shot fired After Z313 in only 2 seconds which was the one which hit the curb near Tague.

Dans Z224 1st shot fits well enough with Norman  seeing JFK hand raised at Z190 and hearing a shot as it’s only about 1.5 sec after that at Z224.

The Z224 1st shot is supported by lack of any SS agents looking back from Z133 to Z207. Hickeys movement at Z 143 looking forward left ( and down) is NOT a response to a gunshot since he said he had looked BACK at TSBD when he heard the first shot.

Andrew’s is the more controversial theory. The bullets have to deflect more and fragment more and the Z190 shot is thru the tree foliage. The movements of JFK and JC from Z224-Z230 must be considered delayed reactions. Z190 however, does fit with the Willis girl reaction and Betzner not hearing a shot until after his Z186 photo taken.

Dans Z224 1st theory makes a lot of sense in explaining lack of reactions of not only the SS agents but people all along the road beside the limo such as Charles Brehm and 2 guys clapping and a woman walking calmly across the plaza green in the background.

The one questionable shot is a 3rd shot fired rapidly in just 2 secs , apparently UNaimed. It’s questionable if it’s a bolt action rifle why the shooter would have lost his target or why he would  fire a 3rd shot at all since he must have seen that he scored the hit at Z313.

What makes the least sense is the conventional WC theory that the 1st shot missed the entire limo and that it was fired at Z124, or Z140 deflecting off a light pole, or at Z150.,Z160, or Z170. None of those are in keeping with a 3/4th majority witness hearing 3 shots rapidly fired and the last 2 “back to back”.

Why do people keep relying on witnesses to figure out what happened. We have one reliable witness and that was Zapruder's camera. It trumps all the human witnesses combined. The only human witnesses who we should be relied upon are the ones who can be corroborated by hard evidence.

[Andrew Mason]

What makes the least sense is the conventional WC theory that the 1st shot missed the entire limo and that it was fired at Z124, or Z140 deflecting off a light pole, or at Z150.,Z160, or Z170. None of those are in keeping with a 3/4th majority witness hearing 3 shots rapidly fired and the last 2 “back to back”.

Progress Zeon!  All very reasonable points.

You are beginning to realize that there is no way the evidence can fit a first shot miss.  However, I would not agree that JFK's reaction is delayed. It is rather difficult to accept that JFK is not reacting between z193 and before z224:



JBC's reaction was not to being hit by it in the back/armpit. So his reaction will be delayed because he has to process the significance of the sound, realize that the President may have been hit by a rifle shot and begin to turn around to catch sight of the President.

Dan's first shot SBT scenario might be more persuasive if there was a reasonable explanation for JBC being absolutely sure that he was not hit in the back/armpit by the first shot - and if there was cogent evidence of a third shot miss. Also, the shot had to be a bit earlier than z224.