Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[Andrew Mason]

At last you have said something I can fully agree with.
i am better able to determine what happened because I base my beliefs on what the Z-film shows while those witnesses gave their accounts based on fallible human memories. Almost all of these accounts were given before the Z-film became widely available for people to view. You have this silly idea that when an eye or ear witness tells us something, it must be true.  Just about everything you believe is based on what somebody said, even though other somebodies told us a different story.

That comment shows that you have misunderstood what I have been saying. I have never said or suggested that witnesses are always right. One has to look at what it is that they are observing what whether there are common factors that would cause them to make the same mistake. In the case of observing the direction of the sound there are many reasons why witnesses in the same general location would be mistaken in the same way.  But with respect to easily observable visual recollections in full daylight there are no common factors that would likely induce the same mistake in a high proportion of witnesses. One also has to examine all the evidence.  In this case there are multiple independent facts established by witness observations that fit with each other and corroborate each other.

I expect the above paragraph will also be misunderstood. I can only hope that maybe you will try to apply a bit of rigor to your dismissal of it that at least shows you have read it.

Fair enough. So if JFK didn't move left until after he was shot, how is it possible the bullet that exited from the center of his throat could have passed to the left of JBC's torso when JBC was seated to the left of JFK?

I agree that JFK was sitting so that his midline was a bit to the right of JBC before he was shot through the neck. We just disagree with how much and how much would have been required for the right to left shot go on to strike JBC’s right armpit.

My point was that he has moved quite a bit to the left by z225 and z226 because he essentially stays in that left-right position through to at least z270 if not z313.  So if he moved left after the shot that hit him he must have moved before z225. If, as you suggest, he was hit at z223, that leaves 2 frames to move left.

[Tom Graves]

With respect to easily observable visual recollections in full daylight there are no common factors that would likely induce the same mistake in a high proportion of witnesses.

What, pray tell, is a "visual recollection" in this context?

Something that an eyewitness believes they saw happen in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza?

[John Corbett]

That comment shows that you have misunderstood what I have been saying. I have never said or suggested that witnesses are always right. One has to look at what it is that they are observing what whether there are common factors that would cause them to make the same mistake. In the case of observing the direction of the sound there are many reasons why witnesses in the same general location would be mistaken in the same way.  But with respect to easily observable visual recollections in full daylight there are no common factors that would likely induce the same mistake in a high proportion of witnesses. One also has to examine all the evidence.  In this case there are multiple independent facts established by witness observations that fit with each other and corroborate each other.

I expect the above paragraph will also be misunderstood. I can only hope that maybe you will try to apply a bit of rigor to your dismissal of it that at least shows you have read it.
I agree that JFK was sitting so that his midline was a bit to the right of JBC before he was shot through the neck. We just disagree with how much and how much would have been required for the right to left shot go on to strike JBC’s right armpit.

My point was that he has moved quite a bit to the left by z225 and z226 because he essentially stays in that left-right position through to at least z270 if not z313.  So if he moved left after the shot that hit him he must have moved before z225. If, as you suggest, he was hit at z223, that leaves 2 frames to move left.

You didn't answer the question. If JBC was to the left of JFK when the bullet exited the centerline of JFK's throat, how is it possible that bullet could have passed to the left of JBC's torso when JBC was only 3 feet in front of and to the left of JFK? The geometry for your theory is impossible.

Also, JFK did not immediately tilt to his left following being shot. His initial reaction to being shot was to raise up and bring his arms up to the level of his chin. It was only after his elbows went back down that he started leaning to the left. By claiming that the shot that struck him initially was in the early Z190s, you are adding two more seconds to the how long it took him to make that move to his left.

You never seem to be the least bit bothered by the impossibility of the things you propose.

[Andrew Mason]

You didn't answer the question. If JBC was to the left of JFK when the bullet exited the centerline of JFK's throat, how is it possible that bullet could have passed to the left of JBC's torso when JBC was only 3 feet in front of and to the left of JFK? The geometry for your theory is impossible.

If you want to be taken seriously you need to show why it would be impossible. Not at z223 when  you suggest the first shot occurred but between z190-z200 when the evidence indicates it occurred. (I suggest z193). I agree a shot at z223 would not miss JBC's back. 

You could do that by specifying the angle of the trajectory not at z223 but at z193, the distance between the two men and their positions.

I have done all that by creating a 3D software model based on an accurate map of Dealey Plaza, an accurate car model and location of the car at z193 and the position of the two men in the car. This is where I found the bullet to go after passing through JFK:

Also, JFK did not immediately tilt to his left following being shot. His initial reaction to being shot was to raise up and bring his arms up to the level of his chin. It was only after his elbows went back down that he started leaning to the left. By claiming that the shot that struck him initially was in the early Z190s, you are adding two more seconds to the how long it took him to make that move to his left.

You never seem to be the least bit bothered by the impossibility of the things you propose.

It looks obvious to me that at z225 JFK's right side is not pressed against the car and he is not leaning to the right as he was in z193.

[Tom Graves]

[...]

You meant to say, "Between Z-190 and Z-200, when oodles and gobs of so-called earwitnesses in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza said it might have occurred."

[John Corbett]

That comment shows that you have misunderstood what I have been saying.

I am not alone in that room. In fact, it's quite crowded.

I have never said or suggested that witnesses are always right.

You just treat them as if they are provided they tell a story that fits your story. Without going to the trouble of going back through the archives, I would wager 90+% of your arguments start with so-and-so said.

One has to look at what it is that they are observing what whether there are common factors that would cause them to make the same mistake.

You mean like double sounds from the same shot. A number of things can cause that. Hence the impression may people got that the last two shots were close together.

In the case of observing the direction of the sound there are many reasons why witnesses in the same general location would be mistaken in the same way.  But with respect to easily observable visual recollections in full daylight there are no common factors that would likely induce the same mistake in a high proportion of witnesses. One also has to examine all the evidence.  In this case there are multiple independent facts established by witness observations that fit with each other and corroborate each other.

More blah, blah, blah. It all comes down to the reliability of witnesses to discern what they are hearing. You pretend sound is not a reliable indicator of the direction of the shots but is for the spacing of the shots. The truth is neither is reliable because sound can fool people. Echoes and other double sounds from the same shot can distort not only where the sound is coming from but also present a false impression of the spacing of the shots. If one person can be fooled by that phenomenon, multiple people can be fooled by it.

The visual evidence is just as unreliable, especially when it is in conjunction with the audio evidence. For starters, in order for people to determine where the limo was when the first shot was fired, they would have to recognize the sound of the first shot for what it was. Many clearly did not. Some did not seem to hear it at all (like Clint Hill) and others thought it was a backfire. Even among those who did recognize the sound as a gunshot, I doubt the reaction of any of them would be to make a mental note of where the limo was when they heard the sound. JBC is a perfect example. His estimate was the limo was maybe 100 feet down Elm St. Then he said maybe 200 feet. Very imprecise. Obviously he was just guessing. Since we are left to guess, my guess is that all the witnesses who recognized the first were guessing as to where the limo was when they heard the first shot. It's just not something somebody is going to make a mental note of at time it happened. Why would they?

I expect the above paragraph will also be misunderstood. I can only hope that maybe you will try to apply a bit of rigor to your dismissal of it that at least shows you have read it.

I have read it and it makes no sense.

I agree that JFK was sitting so that his midline was a bit to the right of JBC before he was shot through the neck. We just disagree with how much and how much would have been required for the right to left shot go on to strike JBC’s right armpit.

That is pretty much where I would except it to hit JBC. The amount of right to left movement would be negligible in the short distance the bullet traveled between JFK's throat and JBC's back. What is not remotely possible is that the bullet could have passed to the left of JBC's torso which is what you cockamamie theory calls for.

My point was that he has moved quite a bit to the left by z225 and z226 because he essentially stays in that left-right position through to at least z270 if not z313.  So if he moved left after the shot that hit him he must have moved before z225. If, as you suggest, he was hit at z223, that leaves 2 frames to move left.

That might be the dumbest argument you have ever made. JFK had not moved to the left at Z225 and there is no evidence he had moved left before that frame either. It's just one more silly thing you've had to invent to try to save your turkey of a theory. That theory is as dumb as anything the most rabid tinfoil hatted CT has ever dreamed up. It is right up there with the storm sewer shooter and Greer firing the fatal headshot. Why you continue to cling to it is puzzling. You seem to have a pride of authorship for it but I have no idea why. I would be embarrassed to argue for something so silly.

[Andrew Mason]

You meant to say, "Between Z-190 and Z-200, when oodles and gobs of so-called earwitnesses in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza said it might have occurred."

The reverberations would have no bearing on observing where they were and where JFK or his car when the first “horrible ear-shattering noise” was heard. How would reverberations affect people in the VP car recalling that their car had just completed the turn? or occupants of the VP security car observing that they had made the turn onto Elm and were along side the TSBD?