Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[Andrew Mason]

Well, at least you tried. Finally.

I have published those many times before.

You don't have JBC's shoulders turned even close to how they were at Z271. The middle sketch approximates Zapruder's perspective but in reality, Zapruder was still slightly ahead of the limo at Z271. From Zapruder's position, JBC's shoulders were rotated clockwise away from Zapruder. You have his shoulders rotated counterclockwise from square to Zapruder. You have his head rotated more than his shoulders were turned.

As I have explained, I do not have a model that duplicates a torso twist.  I am trying to get the position of his torso at the level of his fifth rib correct, so the shoulders are not turned as much as they are in z271.  But the fifth rib is about right.  You can see this yourself if you took the time to twist your torso from a forward seating position so you could see behind you.

Here is JBC at z254-255 from the front-left (Altgens No. 6):


Here is JBC as seen in the Zfilm at z254 for comparison:



And here is what he looks like in z268:



Now if you think the entry wound in his right armpit is not visible to a shooter in the SN (Oswald) you will have to explain what is blocking it. 

Keep in mind that the angle to the SN is very small at this point.  The shot from the SN looks like this:

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[John Corbett]

I have published those many times before.

Which does nothing to improve on the inaccuracy of them.

As I have explained, I do not have a model that duplicates a torso twist.

You seem to have a goofy idea that the human torso can twist like a rubber band. The torso moves as a unit and the shoulders can move very little independently of the torso. Anyone can try this out for themselves. See how much they can rotate their shoulders while keeping the torso square to the front. Very little.

I am trying to get the position of his torso at the level of his fifth rib correct, so the shoulders are not turned as much as they are in z271.  But the fifth rib is about right.  You can see this yourself if you took the time to twist your torso from a forward seating position so you could see behind you.

The torso does not twist. The chest and abdomen rotate together. There is no twisting. The torso can turn independently of the hips but that does nothing to bolster your argument.

Here is JBC at z254-255 from the front-left (Altgens No. 6):


Here is JBC as seen in the Zfilm at z254 for comparison:



And here is what he looks like in z268:



Now if you think the entry wound in his right armpit is not visible to a shooter in the SN (Oswald) you will have to explain what is blocking it.

You keep twisting words to try to make your goofy theory sound plausible. It's not working. The wound was not in the armpit. It was in his BACK near the armpit. No part of JBC's back was exposed to the sniper's nest at Z271 which makes it impossible for Oswald to have shot JBC in the back at that frame. Not even close to being possible.

 

Keep in mind that the angle to the SN is very small at this point.  The shot from the SN looks like this:

It doesn't have to be large. JBC's back was not exposed to Oswald even if Oswald had been directly behind the limo. With Oswald slightly right of that, it makes it even more absurd that he could have shot him in the back at that time. Your theory is as ridiculous as some of the most absurd CT theories ever offered including the one that had Greer shooting JFK from the driver's seat. It's that bad.

[Zeon Mason]

So if Z271 is hitting JC at 2000ft/sec, an impact which JC recalled , surely there should be some forward moment from that impact. Where is it?

All I see in this Z270-Z280 range is a movement of JC leaning BACK while his shoulder line is still approx parallel with the right side door of the limo. Nothing anywhere near like the very dramatic movement forward  of JC at Z224 by the SBT bullet which was  only 1500ft/sec.

That one edited Z film sequence that Andrew posted i think is mistaking the perspective of JC leaning back motion as “forward”. I’d have to see some other measurement technique like John Mytton used  prove that JFKs head moved forward from Z312 to Z313.

Also a Z270 bullet would be exiting JC at about 1500ft/sec and that bullet is still a downward angle albeit slightly less than Z224.  So that bullet likely goes into the seat of Kellerman at the least and probably even into Kellermans body.

Maybe someone can hire Dale Myers  to do some new computer wizardry with this Z190 and Z270 shot proposal. Good luck though as Myers is convinced by his own previous work that he had proved the SBT at Z224 beyond reasonable doubt.

[John Corbett]

So if Z271 is hitting JC at 2000ft/sec, an impact which JC recalled , surely there should be some forward moment from that impact. Where is it?

All I see in this Z270-Z280 range is a movement of JC leaning BACK while his shoulder line is still approx parallel with the right side door of the limo. Nothing anywhere near like the very dramatic movement forward  of JC at Z224 by the SBT bullet which was  only 1500ft/sec.

That one edited Z film sequence that Andrew posted i think is mistaking the perspective of JC leaning back motion as “forward”. I’d have to see some other measurement technique like John Mytton used  prove that JFKs head moved forward from Z312 to Z313.

Also a Z270 bullet would be exiting JC at about 1500ft/sec and that bullet is still a downward angle albeit slightly less than Z224.  So that bullet likely goes into the seat of Kellerman at the least and probably even into Kellermans body.

Maybe someone can hire Dale Myers  to do some new computer wizardry with this Z190 and Z270 shot proposal. Good luck though as Myers is convinced by his own previous work that he had proved the SBT at Z224 beyond reasonable doubt.

Why would Myers waste his time dealing with such nonsense. It's not like Andrew's scenario is gaining any traction with anybody. I have to wonder why I bother addressing this nonsense.

[Andrew Mason]

Which does nothing to improve on the inaccuracy of them.You seem to have a goofy idea that the human torso can twist like a rubber band. The torso moves as a unit and the shoulders can move very little independently of the torso. Anyone can try this out for themselves. See how much they can rotate their shoulders while keeping the torso square to the front. Very little. The torso does not twist. The chest and abdomen rotate together. There is no twisting.
 

With my chest and hips facing forward I can extend the right arm to the rear reaching back as far as possible and the left extending to the front as far as possible. This puts the right shoulder behind me and the left in front. So with my hips facing in a 12 o'clock position my shoulders turn to about a 1:30 position or 45 degrees.  I suspect I am not anatomically unique in that respect.  My upper chest does turn a bit but not as much as the shoulders.

The twist occurs because each rib is connected by a flexible joint to its own vertebra in the spine and the vertebra are connected to each other by flexible material that allow each vertebra to turn a different amount than its immediate neighbours. If a person has had back surgery resulting in fused vertebrae, the ability to twist is lost for those vertebrae.  But Connally appears to have had a normal spine.

The wound was not in the armpit. It was in his BACK near the armpit.

The wound was lateral to the lateral edge of the right scapula. It missed the scapula. The posterior border of the axilla or armpit is the lateral edge of the scapula. See:
https://teachmeanatomy.info/upper-limb/areas/axilla/

The author shows a diagram of the (left) axilla or armpit region from above which shows that the anterior surface of the scapula forms the posterior boundary of the axilla:



and from the front it shows the right axilla:



The armpit region actually changes depending on the positions of the shoulders and ribs.  But you can easily see that any bullet that misses the scapula enters the armpit.

With Connally turned sharply right as he was in z254 in Altgens 6, the path from the SN looks like this:



So by entering laterally missing the scapula it hits the fifth rib with a significant impact, deflects right, passes along the fifth rib to about mid-axilla and then passes through the fifth rib and exits an inch or so below the right nipple, (which has moved to the right). 

I don't see the bullet path through JBC at z271 to be a problem if the bullet deflected to the right on impacting the fifth rib (and bending it so much that it fractured at the spine).  I don't see how it could not have deflected given the evidence of impact. By deflecting, instead of going through the lung it went around the pulmonary cavity exiting below the right nipple before then hitting the right forearm.


All I can say is that the evidence says he was hit there (the first shot hitting JFK, the second hitting JBC which was closer to the third shot that hit JFK in the head).  Not my interpretation of the evidence: just the evidence at face value. If you think it is impossible you need to show why.  Just spewing a bunch of pejoratives at it doesn't do anything, other than lower the quality of the discussion.

[Andrew Mason]

So if Z271 is hitting JC at 2000ft/sec, an impact which JC recalled , surely there should be some forward moment from that impact. Where is it?

Do you not see movement of JBC here:

All I see in this Z270-Z280 range is a movement of JC leaning BACK while his shoulder line is still approx parallel with the right side door of the limo. Nothing anywhere near like the very dramatic movement forward  of JC at Z224 by the SBT bullet which was  only 1500ft/sec.

The momentum transfer is in the direction the car is moving.

[John Corbett]

With my chest and hips facing forward I can extend the right arm to the rear reaching back as far as possible and the left extending to the front as far as possible. This puts the right shoulder behind me and the left in front. So with my hips facing in a 12 o'clock position my shoulders turn to about a 1:30 position or 45 degrees.  I suspect I am not anatomically unique in that respect.  My upper chest does turn a bit but not as much as the shoulders.

Do you see JBC reaching his right arm to the rear. If not, your whole exercise is pointless.

The twist occurs because each rib is connected by a flexible joint to its own vertebra in the spine and the vertebra are connected to each other by flexible material that allow each vertebra to turn a different amount than its immediate neighbours. If a person has had back surgery resulting in fused vertebrae, the ability to twist is lost for those vertebrae.  But Connally appears to have had a normal spine.
 

The wound was lateral to the lateral edge of the right scapula. It missed the scapula. The posterior border of the axilla or armpit is the lateral edge of the scapula. See:
https://teachmeanatomy.info/upper-limb/areas/axilla/

The author shows a diagram of the (left) axilla or armpit region from above which shows that the anterior surface of the scapula forms the posterior boundary of the axilla:



and from the front it shows the right axilla:



The armpit region actually changes depending on the positions of the shoulders and ribs.  But you can easily see that any bullet that misses the scapula enters the armpit.

With Connally turned sharply right as he was in z254 in Altgens 6, the path from the SN looks like this:

Quit trying to play doctor. Your arguments are silly enough as a layman.

So by entering laterally missing the scapula it hits the fifth rib with a significant impact, deflects right, passes along the fifth rib to about mid-axilla and then passes through the fifth rib and exits an inch or so below the right nipple, (which has moved to the right). 

I don't see the bullet path through JBC at z271 to be a problem if the bullet deflected to the right on impacting the fifth rib (and bending it so much that it fractured at the spine).  I don't see how it could not have deflected given the evidence of impact. By deflecting, instead of going through the lung it went around the pulmonary cavity exiting below the right nipple before then hitting the right forearm.


All I can say is that the evidence says he was hit there (the first shot hitting JFK, the second hitting JBC which was closer to the third shot that hit JFK in the head).  Not my interpretation of the evidence: just the evidence at face value. If you think it is impossible you need to show why.  Just spewing a bunch of pejoratives at it doesn't do anything, other than lower the quality of the discussion.

In order to save this turkey of a scenario you dreamed up years ago, you keep sounding more and more foolish. In order to buy this crapola, we would have to believe:

1. Oswald fired at JFK while he was still passing under the tree when all he had to do is wait on more second to have a clear shot.
2. JFK and JBC were both hit at Z193, but neither reacted immediately. JFK slowly and calmly started to lower his right arm while JBC just continued to turn to look over his right shoulder oblivious to a deep puncture wound in his thigh.
3. Almost two seconds later at Z226, both men exhibited a delayed reaction to being shot at exactly the same instant when both men suddenly and dramatically flipped their arms upward, JFK in reaction to his throat wound and JBC to his thigh wound.
4. JBC began twisting to his right and doubled over in reaction to being shot in the thigh, even though he said he did that in reaction to having been shot in the back. Amazing how willing you are to disregard witnesses when they don't fit your BS story.
5. JBC, continued to turn dramatically in a clockwise direction until he was facing JFK and the shooter, all in reaction to being shot in the thigh.
6. With JBC turned to the rear and his shoulders roughly parallel to the sides of the car and Oswald behind him and slightly right, Oswald managed to fire a shot into his back near his right armpit, even though he had no view of JBC's back, and the bullet made about a 60 degree turn to the right to exit under JBC's right nipple.
7. After having fired his first shot, Oswald took 4.3 seconds to take aim for his second shot but completely missed JFK and hit JBC instead.
8. After missing JFK with his second shot after taking 4.3 seconds to aim, Oswald took only 2.3 seconds, the bare minimum time needed to fire an aimed shot with the Carcano, and made a precision headshot, killing JFK.

One of these items is hard to believe. It is preposterous to believe all 8 of these things could have happened. Do you ever wonder why after all these years, no one else has ever looked at the evidence and reached these same conclusions? Do you really think you have figured out something that eluded armies of researchers, both LNs and CTs, for six decades. You are a cult of one. That alone should tell you how silly your scenario is. That scenario exists only in your head.