Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[Andrew Mason]

If we don't read the reactions of JBC and Willis as evidence of a gunshot, there is nothing in the Z-film that would tell us when Oswald's missed shot was fired

Or that any shot missed. 

That is why the WC never determined which shot missed. They allowed that it could be the first, second, or third shot.

Until the HSCA used bogus acoustic evidence to conclude that there was a shot at around z160 and another shot at z190, most observers interpreted the WC report as favouring a missed second or third shot. This was certainly John McCloy's view.*

*McCloy testified to this before the HSCA (3 HSCA 599-612).  He thought JBC could have been hit in the back and not noticed it until after it had struck. He even used two examples from his own experience.  He related the story of a soldier standing beside him in a parade square in Berlin after WWII as they were preparing to welcome President Truman.  The soldier was the stand-in for President in the parade rehearsal.  He was shot by a sniper and had a delayed reaction before he said, "Jack, I think I'm shot". He survived.  (3 HSCA 604-605)

[John Corbett]

Or that any shot missed.  Until the HSCA used bogus acoustic evidence to conclude that there was a shot at around z160 and another shot at z190, most observers interpreted the WC report as favouring a missed second or third shot. This was certainly John McCloy's view.*

A lot of people misinterpreted what the WC said about the missed shot even though the WC clearly showed no favoritism to which shot missed. They presented the pros and cons of each one. Anyone who believes otherwise has very poor reading comprehension skills.

As far as "most observers interpreted" goes, I don't know where you get that. For at least 20 years there is a clear consensus among the LNs I have engaged with that the missed shots was the first shot. You are the only LN I've ever met who doesn't think there was a missed shot. If there wasn't a missed shot, why was only one bullet found in the limo? Why were there only two bullets recovered?

*McCloy testified to this before the HSCA (3 HSCA 599-612).  He thought JBC could have been hit in the back and not noticed it until after it had struck. He even used two examples from his own experience.  He related the story of a soldier standing beside him in a parade square in Berlin after WWII as they were preparing to welcome President Truman.  The soldier was the stand-in for President in the parade rehearsal.  He was shot by a sniper and had a delayed reaction before he said, "Jack, I think I'm shot". He survived.  (3 HSCA 604-605)

That's nice but JBC didn't show a delay reaction. He reacted to being shot at the same instant JFK did. Both men suddenly flipped their arms upward at Z226. How do you explain that if they weren't both hit at the same time?

PS, Are you ever going to get around to explaining how Oswald could have shot JBC in the back at Z271 when JBC was facing him at that time or does that question have you stumped?

[Andrew Mason]

A lot of people misinterpreted what the WC said about the missed shot even though the WC clearly showed no favoritism to which shot missed. They presented the pros and cons of each one. Anyone who believes otherwise has very poor reading comprehension skills.

Well the WC also said that the SBT was not necessary and we know that only four of seven members agreed with it. Russell, Cooper and Boggs disagreed with the SBT.

As far as "most observers interpreted" goes, I don't know where you get that. For at least 20 years there is a clear consensus among the LNs I have engaged with that the missed shots was the first shot.

I was referring to the period after 1964 until after the HSCA report in 1978…

You are the only LN I've ever met who doesn't think there was a missed shot.

I think you are forgetting about Russell, Cooper and Boggs and the Connallys plus the Secret Service agents whose views are collected in Gerald Blaine’s book: The Kennedy Detail.

If there wasn't a missed shot, why was only one bullet found in the limo? Why were there only two bullets recovered?

Well, one whole bullet and several fragments. But we also know that some fragments defelected up and struck high in the car and at least one fragment left the car.  We don’t know if any others left the car but that is certainly possible or even probable.

That's nice but JBC didn't show a delay reaction. He reacted to being shot at the same instant JFK did. Both men suddenly flipped their arms upward at Z226. How do you explain that if they weren't both hit at the same time?

The WC thought the neck shot was close to z210 and concluded that he was already reacting behind the sign based on how he appears when he first appears in z225.  JBC is not reacting in z222-z226 so they thought his reaction was delayed.

PS, Are you ever going to get around to explaining how Oswald could have shot JBC in the back at Z271 when JBC was facing him at that time or does that question have you stumped?

I have.  You just don’t agree that it fits the medical evidence.

 You seem to think that it was a tumbling bullet that struck when JBC was facing forward but made a neat tunneling wound first along the fifth rib without damaging the adjacent muscles. After pulverizing the last 10 cm of rib, you think it then exited the chest passing through the chest and making a long ragged tear in the back if the cuff (but not the other side) and then made a nice round hole in the thigh in the direction of and along the femur.

That scenario is the one that strains belief.

[John Corbett]

Well the WC also said that the SBT was not necessary and we know that only four of seven members agreed with it. Russell, Cooper and Boggs disagreed with the SBT.

That means 4 of them figured it out and the other 3 didn't.

I was referring to the period after 1964 until after the HSCA report in 1978…

A lot has been learned since 1978. Most people hadn't even seen the Zapruder film by 1978. It was sometime in the latter 1980s that I first saw it.

I think you are forgetting about Russell, Cooper and Boggs and the Connallys plus the Secret Service agents whose views are collected in Gerald Blaine’s book: The Kennedy Detail.Well, one whole bullet and several fragments. But we also know that some fragments defelected up and struck high in the car and at least one fragment left the car.  We don’t know if any others left the car but that is certainly possible or even probable.
The WC thought the neck shot was close to z210 and concluded that he was already reacting behind the sign based on how he appears when he first appears in z225.

There is nothing in the WC conclusions that indicate they thought the shot was closer to Z210. They said it struck between Z210 and Z225. They were right about that.

JBC is not reacting in z222-z226 so they thought his reaction was delayed.

WRONG!!! JBC is most definitely reacting in Z226 when he starts flipping his right arm upward in perfect unison with JFK bringing his arms up. That up and down motion of his right arm lasted just a half second and was immediately followed by him doubling over and dipping to his right. In addition, JBC's right shoulder dips at Z225 and in Z224 his jacket bulges out noticeably. All these are indications he has just been shot.

Had the WC had modern technology and decades to study the Z-film, they might have picked up on these clues and been far more precise in their conclusions. As it was, the parameters they gave us were correct if not terribly precise.

I have.  You just don’t agree that it fits the medical evidence.

What you gave us was a cockamamie drawing that didn't come close to showing JBC's actual position at Z271. His head and shoulders were both rotated about 90 degrees more than what your drawing showed. Even with that manipulation, you still needed a magic bullet deflecting significantly to exit where it did. It was an absurd attempt. You had JBC turned to the front right in the general direction of Zapruder instead of rearward toward Oswald which is what he actually was at that frame. Let me see you produce a drawing that shows JBC in the position he was actually in at Z271 and then show us how the bullet could have entered JBC's back and exited from the right side of his chest. You won't because you can't.

.

You seem to think that it was a tumbling bullet that struck when JBC was facing forward but made a neat tunneling wound first along the fifth rib without damaging the adjacent muscles. After pulverizing the last 10 cm of rib, you think it then exited the chest passing through the chest and making a long ragged tear in the back if the cuff (but not the other side) and then made a nice round hole in the thigh in the direction of and along the femur.

Where are you getting your information? The entry wound on JBC's back was elongated almost the length of a Carcano bullet. The bullet had to be tumbling to make that kind of wound and the father/son Haas ballistics showed they a Carcano bullet will tumble after passing through ballistic gel as well as ballistic soap.

That scenario is the one that strains belief.

The WC scenario with a single bullet striking two men is the only explanation of the shooting that has stood the test of time. Any objections to it are easily refuted.

[Michael Capasse]

The Z-film alone gives us clues as to when the first shot was fired without using any witnesses. We see JBC turn to look over his right shoulder at Z164. Here's where a CORROBORARED witness can come into play. He said he turned in response to hearing the first shot which he recognized as the sound of a high powered rifle. The film and JBC's statement jibe. Without JBC's statement it would be hard to determine that his turn to look over his right shoulder was a reaction to the first shot. The fact the film and his statement jibe strengthens the probative value of both. In addition we have Rosemary Willis running alongside the limo. She begins to slowdown during the Z160s and when she comes to a stop, she turns and looks back to the TSBD. She later said she did that upon hearing a gunshot. She didn't testify before the WC but was called by the HSCA. None of this is proof positive as to when the first shot was fired but taken as a whole, it is probative of a shot prior to Z164. If we add to that the blurring and frame jump in Z155, it is a strong indication of a shot around Z147-148.

If we don't read the reactions of JBC and Willis as evidence of a gunshot, there is nothing in the Z-film that would tell us when Oswald's missed shot was fired.  That is why the WC never determined which shot missed. They allowed that it could be the first, second, or third shot.

Once again, you talk out of two sides of your mouth.

There is no sound on any film. You are backing into your a preset conclusion with no basis of fact.
You said witnesses cannot be relied on and are often times wrong. How do you know JBC was correct about when he turned?
He disputed the SBT directly. You cherry pick what you want.

Phil Willis took his number 5 picture when he heard a shot. That was about Z-frame 202.
Hugh Betzner took his number 3 picture and was winding his camera when he heard the same shot.
Sam Holland, was on the bridge. He heard the same shot when JFK reached for his brow. That occurs about Z-204.

Look at Betzner 3 and Willis 5 - see where the car is between two pictures. WC wouldn't. Look at "Black Dog Man" in both pictures.
A human figure taken with 2 different cameras - both oddly without any flesh tone or distinct characteristics. (a black man huh?)
Rosemary told the HSCA: Ms. Willis stated that she was present with her father and a sister in the area of the grass section of the plaza at
the time of the Presidential motorcade on November 22, 1963. The other was a person who was standing just behind the
concrete wall near the triple underpass. "That person appeared to "disappear the next instant."

How do you know when Rosemary Willis stopped and why? - She ran ahead of the limo - how do you know she
wasn't looking back for the car. Her father told Shaw Trial he called her name - How do you know she didn't turn for that ?
She stopped for a shot. - When was the shot? You don't know. Witnesses are often wrong (but only when you want).

  Your time line isn't proof of anything
Interesting, she actually stops short right around z- frame 200.
 

[John Corbett]

Once again, you talk out of two sides of your mouth.

There is no sound on any film. You are backing into your a preset conclusion with no basis of fact.
You said witnesses cannot be relied on and are often times wrong. How do you know JBC was correct about when he turned?
He disputed the SBT directly. You cherry pick what you want.

I've said UNCORROBORATED witnesses can't be relied upon.
JBC said he turned when he heard the shot. I can see when he turned It was Z164.
JBC disputed the SBT because he had been led to believe JFK was hit by the first shot and he KNEW he had been hit by the second shot. When asked if the single bullet could have occurred on the second shot, he said that's possible.

Phil Willis took his number 5 picture when he heard a shot. That was about Z-frame 202.
Hugh Betzner took his number 3 picture and was winding his camera when he heard the same shot.
Sam Holland, was on the bridge. He heard the same shot when JFK reached for his brow. That occurs about Z-204.

Look at Betzner 3 and Willis 5 - see where the car is between two shots. WC didn't. Look at "Black Dog Man" in both pictures.
A human figure taken with 2 different cameras - both oddly without any flesh tone or distinct characteristics. (a black man huh?)
Rosemary told the HSCA: Ms. Willis stated that she was present with her father and a sister in the area of the grass section of the plaza at
the time of the Presidential motorcade on November 22, 1963. The other was a person who was standing just behind the
concrete wall near the triple underpass. "That person appeared to "disappear the next instant."

A whole lot of "so-and-say said" arguments with nothing to support that so-and-so accurately remembered exactly what happened when.

How do you know when Rosemary Willis stopped and why? She ran ahead of the limo - how do you know she
wasn't looking back for the car. Her father told Shaw Trial he called her name - How do you know she didn't turn for that ?
She stopped for a shot. - When was the shot? You don't know. Witnesses are often wrong (but only when you want).
[/quote]

I can see when Rosemary Willis stopped. She started to slow down in the late Z160s. It took her about 3 steps to come to a complete stop and as soon as she did, she turned back toward the TSBD. Once again the Z-film shows it is the best witness available to us.

  Your time line isn't proof of anything
Interesting, she actually stops short right around z- frame 200.

I've never claimed to have proof positive of when the first shot was fired. I have argued the best evidence is it was fired in the 147-148 time frame based on the camera jiggle at Z155. Others may disagree which is fine. Nobody else has definitive proof of when the first shot was fired either. It is all based on how we weigh the clues the Z-film provides us. I can say for fact that there was no shot at Z204 because I know Oswald fired all three shots and he couldn't have fired a shot at Z204 and another at Z219-200. In addition, the tree would have still blocked Oswald's view of JFK at Z204 making it unlikely Oswald would fire a shot then when his target was about to come into the clear in less than half a second.

[Michael Capasse]

I've said UNCORROBORATED witnesses can't be relied upon.
JBC said he turned when he heard the shot. I can see when he turned It was Z164.
JBC disputed the SBT because he had been led to believe JFK was hit by the first shot and he KNEW he had been hit by the second shot. When asked if the single bullet could have occurred on the second shot, he said that's possible.A whole lot of "so-and-say said" arguments with nothing to support that so-and-so accurately remembered exactly what happened when.

How do you know when Rosemary Willis stopped and why? She ran ahead of the limo - how do you know she
wasn't looking back for the car. Her father told Shaw Trial he called her name - How do you know she didn't turn for that ?
She stopped for a shot. - When was the shot? You don't know. Witnesses are often wrong (but only when you want).


I can see when Rosemary Willis stopped. She started to slow down in the late Z160s. It took her about 3 steps to come to a complete stop and as soon as she did, she turned back toward the TSBD. Once again the Z-film shows it is the best witness available to us.
I've never claimed to have proof positive of when the first shot was fired. I have argued the best evidence is it was fired in the 147-148 time frame based on the camera jiggle at Z155. Others may disagree which is fine. Nobody else has definitive proof of when the first shot was fired either. It is all based on how we weigh the clues the Z-film provides us. I can say for fact that there was no shot at Z204 because I know Oswald fired all three shots and he couldn't have fired a shot at Z204 and another at Z219-200. In addition, the tree would have still blocked Oswald's view of JFK at Z204 making it unlikely Oswald would fire a shot then when his target was about to come into the clear in less than half a second.

All pretext by you. Disputed and corroborated as false by Phil Willis, Hugh Betzner, Sam Holland and Rosemary Willis.