Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[Tom Graves]

Patricia Ann Donaldson said that the limo had just straightened out on Elm Street and that the last two of the three shots were fired very close together. (paraphrased)

Given the nature of the beast (Dealey Plaza created different echoes in different places; people were affected differently by the trauma and chaos they experienced), very few witnesses to the assassination got everything right.

Donaldson at least got the position of the limo basically correct, and from where she was standing, she probably did hear two very close-together echoes.

[Andrew Mason]

Given the nature of the beast (Dealey Plaza created different echoes in different places; people were affected differently by the trauma and chaos they experienced), very few witnesses to the assassination got everything right.

No one said there were distinct echoes.  There were too many different surfaces reflecting sound so the rifle shots sound would have reverberated, probably for more than a second before the reflections died out.

Donaldson at least got the position of the limo basically correct, and from where she was standing, she probably did hear two very close-together echoes.

The car was placed there by Holland.  In the film, she was not asked where she was standing.  We know she wasn’t standing anywhere near there.  So I am not sure how you conclude that she got the position of the car at the time of the first shot right..

[Tom Graves]

No one said there were distinct echoes.

How else are we to explain why several witnesses reported hearing four or more shots, and why so many people disagreed about where they had come from?

We know Lawrence / Donaldson wasn’t standing anywhere near where she was in "The Lost Bullet."

Regardless, she was standing about 30 feet away -- in the street in front of the TSBD entrance -- and had an excellent view down Elm Street.

So, I am not sure how you conclude that she got the position of the limo at the time of the first shot right.

I said basically right, i.e., that the limo had, shortly before the first shot, straightened out on Elm Street.

[Andrew Mason]

How else are we to explain why several witnesses reported hearing four or more shots, and why so many people disagreed about where they had come from?

Maybe they weren’t counting.  There were only four witnesses [Edit: the correct number is six, not four, as pointed out by Tom Graves. ] who thought there were four shots, according to the HSCA compilation of 178 witnesses.. And they weren’t very convincing. For example there is Robert Edwards (6 H 205):

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear, if you remember?
Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I heard one more then than was fired, I believe.
Mr. BELIN. You mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots?
Mr. EDWARDS. I still right now don’t know how many was fired. If I said four, then I thought I heard four.

 In his affidavit sworn Nov. 22, 1963, 24 H 207, Edwards said he thought there were four shots. In his a December 2, 1963 interview with the FBI he is reported to have said he heard three or four shots. He was standing with his friend Robert Fischer who heard only three shots.

Regardless, she was standing about 30 feet away -- in the street in front of the TSBD entrance -- and had an excellent view down Elm Street.

[Edit]Your reference to Lawrence/Donaldson made me do some further checking.  I have to apologize for thinking that Holland’s witness Patricia Ann Donaldson was the same person as the witness Ann Donaldson standing with Mary Woodward .  Holland’s witness was Patricia Ann Lawrence in 1963 and she was standing in front of the TSBD.  Donaldson must be her later married name.  I thought there couldn’t be two different people with the names “Ann” and “Donaldson” but apparently there were! 

[Tom Graves]

There were only four witnesses who thought there were four shots, according to the HSCA compilation of 178 witnesses.

ME: Is this statement correct: "There were only four witnesses who thought there were four shots, according to the HSCA compilation of 178 witnesses."?

GROK: No, the statement is not accurate. According to the HSCA's own compilation and analysis of 178 Dealey Plaza earwitness reports (in Volume VIII, Acoustics Study – Analysis of Earwitness Reports), six witnesses reported exactly four shots, not four.

historymatters.com

Breakdown from the HSCA tabulation:

Exactly 3 shots: 132 (about 74%).
Exactly 2 shots: 17.
2 or 3 shots: 7.
Exactly 4 shots: 6.
Unsure: 9.
Other (1, 4-5, 5, 6, or 8 shots): 7 additional.

historymatters.com

This totals the 178 witnesses. The mean number reported was ~3. The "only four" claim appears to be a minor error or misstatement; the document clearly lists six for exactly four.

historymatters.com

Context

The HSCA (and Warren Commission) noted these discrepancies but attributed most of them to Dealey Plaza's acoustics (echoes/reverberations), surprise/startle effect, and the mix of muzzle blasts, shock waves, and possible impacts—rather than additional gunfire. The vast majority aligned on three shots, often with the last two closer together, matching other evidence. A small number reporting more (or fewer) does not undermine the overall pattern.

spmlaw.ca

The posted claim understates the count slightly but is close; the precise HSCA figure for exactly four is six. For the primary source, see HSCA Volume VIII (especially the earwitness analysis section around the relevant tables).

[Zeon Mason]

Still looks to me like JCs face is indicating he felt at the very least the impact of a bullet about 0.5 sec after S224.

If instead of at Z224  JC is getting hit somewhere between  Z 270-Z280, by a 2nd bullet traveling 2000ft/sec hit his upper body mass , shoujd there not be be some indication of some moment of his upper body forwards?

Since I’ve seen no alternative drawing to the one that JohnM posted to explain the wrist wound, I have to remain doubtful about a shot at Z270-z280 where the bullet exits JCs chest and  goes thru the top of his right hand wrist bone ,  exits the bottom of palm, and misses the hat. The trajectory line from TSBD is the question if it can be aligned with the entry and exit wound line thru JCs upper body in some position between Z270-z280.

The wrist bone wound IDK if it’s reasonable to  suggest that it could have been caused from a fragment from Z 313, because I can’t really tell where JC’s right hand is at the Z313 shot.

[Tom Graves]

[quote author=Zeon Mason link=topic=4893.msg177294#msg177294 date=


Still looks to me like JCs face is indicating he felt at the very least the impact of a bullet about 0.5 sec after S224.

If instead of at Z224  JC is getting hit somewhere between  Z 270-Z280, by a 2nd bullet traveling 2000ft/sec hit his upper body mass , shoujd there not be be some indication of some moment of his upper body forwards?

Since I’ve seen no alternative drawing to the one that JohnM posted to explain the wrist wound, I have to remain doubtful about a shot at Z270-z280 where the bullet exits JCs chest and  goes thru the top of his right hand wrist bone ,  exits the bottom of palm, and misses the hat. The trajectory line from TSBD is the question if it can be aligned with the entry and exit wound line thru JCs upper body in some position between Z270-z280.

The wrist bone wound IDK if it’s reasonable to  suggest that it could have been caused from a fragment from Z 313, because I can’t really tell where JC’s right hand is at the Z313 shot.

If the bullet that stuck JBC in the back was fired from Oswald's Carcano from the Sniper's Nest, would it, having already passed through JFK's upper back / lower neck, have been travelling 2000 fps when it struck JBC in the back?