Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[Zeon Mason]

Where did JC  hold his hat upside with his right hand if JC had his left hand gripping his lower right ankle as the green shirt guy in the  photo?

The left  hand is taking up the space between the legs, and if the right leg and thigh are close to the right door , I don’t see where there’s enough room for the right hand  to hold the  Stetson Hat upside down.

Maybe  have the green shirt guy hold a Stetson hat upside down and try some other position and post that or make another drawing for those of us trying to imagine it in our minds.

And if possible show the position that JC s body was in during the Z frames from 270-275  and make a diagram of the trajectory of this 2nd shot   because I’m having a problem envisioning how the bullet traversed thru JCs back, exited his chest , and was aligned to go thru JCs right wrist without going thru his hat (since it’s still being held upside down).

And after that 270ish bullet exited JCs wrist bone where did THAT bullet go?

I’d need to see an experiment conducted with some more replica human models before I would believe that a Z193 1st shot CE 399 bullet bypassing the mass of JCs body , hence traveling probably still at 1500ft/sec (or even greater) ) would have come to a complete stop in JCs left thigh.

And what about the % of missing metal from the nose of CE 399? Theres no evidence ( as far as WC that is) of any flakes of metal found in JCs thigh muscle or thigh bone, so….

Perhaps if the Z 193 1st shot shot was a tangential strike to the flesh part of JCs inner  left thigh and then continued on, the bullet could have gone thru the front seat and into the front floorboard. If that’s the case then that might explain missing % of metal from the nose of CE 399.

EXCEPT..  how can that be possible if the WC conclusion is correct that the missing % of metal from the nose of CE 399 was due to having passed thru JCs wrist bone.?

[Andrew Mason]

Where did JC  hold his hat upside with his right hand if JC had his left hand gripping his lower right ankle as the green shirt guy in the  photo?

I am not suggesting that JBC held his ankle. He had the side of the door to lean his leg against.  My stand-in found he couldn’t hold a turn to the right without having something to hold his right leg in. The natural position in the floor mounted seat - at least for a male - is not to have the legs together.  We found that, by turning right and holding the right leg the left leg was in that position naturally.
 

Maybe  have the green shirt guy hold a Stetson hat upside down and try some other position and post that or make another drawing for those of us trying to imagine it in our minds.

The position of the hat has nothing to do with a shot going to the left side.

And if possible show the position that JC s body was in during the Z frames from 270-275  and make a diagram of the trajectory of this 2nd shot   because I’m having a problem envisioning how the bullet traversed thru JCs back, exited his chest , and was aligned to go thru JCs right wrist without going thru his hat (since it’s still being held upside down).

The trajectory from the SN through JBC is not a straight line at z271-272. For a bullet from the SN at z271, the path from the entry wound location to the exit wound location requires a bit of a deflection to the right

The forceful impact in the back that JBC felt means there was a sudden change in momentum, which is consistent with a sudden change in direction caused by the bullet impacting the fifth rib.  The impact caused the fifth rib to fracture at the spine which suggests that the rib was pushed in significantly before the bullet penetrated through the rib destroying the last 10 cm of the rib before exiting.

If one turns around to the rear as JBC did from z228-z270, the torso twists. The shoulders turn more than the upper chest and the upper chest turns more that the lower ribs and hips.  As a result, the location of the right nipple in relation to the shoulders changes. Just try turning like that and watch the location of the right nipple move right. 

If the bullet had not been deflected right, it would have passed through the right lung, which it did not do.  It followed the fifth rib initially around the pleural cavity and then passed through the last 10 cm of rib driving shards of rib into the pleural cavity and lower  lung.

And after that 270ish bullet exited JCs wrist bone where did THAT bullet go?

According to the evidence of Tague it fragmented and at least one of the fragments went up over the windshield and struck the curb near him and deflected up to strike his cheek.  Other fragments struck the windshield and frame. Greer said he sensed a concussion effect on the second shot as if something impacted in the car.  He did not notice such an effect on the other two shots.

I’d need to see an experiment conducted with some more replica human models before I would believe that a Z193 1st shot CE 399 bullet bypassing the mass of JCs body , hence traveling probably still at 1500ft/sec (or even greater) ) would have come to a complete stop in JCs left thigh.

I agree. But I am not suggesting that it came to a stop in his thigh.

And what about the % of missing metal from the nose of CE 399? Theres no evidence ( as far as WC that is) of any flakes of metal found in JCs thigh muscle or thigh bone, so…

There was no metal missing from the nose of CE399.  There was a small piece of lead in his thigh but that would have been from the butt end.

Perhaps if the Z 193 1st shot shot was a tangential strike to the flesh part of JCs inner  left thigh and then continued on, the bullet could have gone thru the front seat and into the front floorboard. If that’s the case then that might explain missing % of metal from the nose of CE 399.

EXCEPT..  how can that be possible if the WC conclusion is correct that the missing % of metal from the nose of CE 399 was due to having passed thru JCs wrist bone.?

Again, there was no metal missing from the nose of CE399.

[John Corbett]

That is a popular view. But it is not accurate.  Rapid injuries are often not felt unless they cause loss of function or make a forceful impact on bone.  A flesh wound in an extremity is often not felt immediately. Here is a woman who was shot and never felt the bullet pass through her chest:


In this case, JBC never felt it.
So you don't like my drawing.  How about the picture showing the path from a position 24 inches behind and to the right of the midline of the JBC stand-in and turned not even as far as JBC in z193?

Your drawing looks nothing like the photo. The guy in the green shirt has his left shoulder farther back and farther to the left. Your drawing shows JBC's shoulder moved way forward and in front of the middle of the seat and even with that exaggerated turn, you create barely enough room for the bullet to pass his left side. If you your drawing showed JBC in the same position as the green shirt guy, the line to the thigh wound would have gone through JBC's left siide.

How can you say that the path is not possible? That is absurd:
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It's easy. I just say, "That's impossible".[/td][/tr][/table]

[Tom Graves]

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[Tom Graves]

Here is Governor Connally at Z-272 still holding onto the Stetson after having been shot through the chest and the wrist.

Note that Connally has made a near 180-degree in his seat, despite having been shot through the chest according to the SBT.

Connally said he was checking up on JFK after hearing the first shot.

You and self-confident-by-definition Governor Connally are mistaken.

A close viewing of the Zapruder film shows us that already-looking-to-his-right Connally, after hearing the sounds of Oswald's first, missing everything, shot, started turning his head quickly to his left at Z-153 -- which is why we see him looking straight ahead in the famous Croft photo which was taken at the same time as Z-161.

At Z-161 or Z-162, he started turning his head back to his right in order to glance over his right shoulder to see if JFK was okay, but he couldn't "see" him because by Z-167, JFK had turned HIS head far to HIS right and raised his hand to wave to someone, thereby blocking Connally's view of JFK's now-in-profile face.

Connally then started turning back to his LEFT with the intention of glancing over his LEFT shoulder to see if JFK was okay, but he had only completed about 20 degrees of his intended 200-degree turn when JFK and he were both struck by Oswald's second bullet (CE-399) at approximately Z-222.

The fact that Connally was able turn so far to his right -- as we see him in Z-272 after he had been shot through his chest from back-to-front by CE-399 -- and that he was able to (or couldn't help but) continue holding onto his Stetson hat after his wrist was penetrated by tumbling CE-399 are not phenomena that are unknown to medical science.


(I personally think you should stop smoking so much flash-bang in the bushes.)

[John Corbett]

Here is Andrew Mason's drawing showing how he thinks the bullet exiting JFK's throat could have struck JBC in the thigh without first passing through his torso:


Here are some photos which he says simulate JBC's position at Z193:

Even the photo looks to me that JBC is turned farther to the right than we see in Z193 but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say the photo acurately depicts JBC's position. The drawing shows an exaggerated turn to the right and even then shows there was barely enough room for the bullet to miss JBC's torso and still find his thigh. Note how dissimilar these two representations are. The drawing shows an extreme turn to the right. Note how much further forward JBC's left shoulder is in the drawing than in the photo. Note how much more it is turned to the right in the drawing than in the photo.

So even using his photo of JBC's simulated position, JBC's left shoulder is not turned anywhere near far enough to create an open path from JFK's throat to JBC's thigh. He has to exaggerate JBC's position at Z193 to even show a theoretical possibility of his SBT 2.0 scenario. This is why I said earlier it is impossible.

EDIT: I should have included the actual Z193 frame when I first posted this so I am adding it now:


Compare JBC's shoulder turn in the actual frame to Andrew's photos and drawing.

[Andrew Mason]

Here is Andrew Mason's drawing showing how he thinks the bullet exiting JFK's throat could have struck JBC in the thigh without first passing through his torso:


Here are some photos which he says simulate JBC's position at Z193:

Even the photo looks to me that JBC is turned farther to the right than we see in Z193 but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say the photo acurately depicts JBC's position. The drawing shows an exaggerated turn to the right and even then shows there was barely enough room for the bullet to miss JBC's torso and still find his thigh. Note how dissimilar these two representations are. The drawing shows an extreme turn to the right. Note how much further forward JBC's left shoulder is in the drawing than in the photo. Note how much more it is turned to the right in the drawing than in the photo.

So even using his photo of JBC's simulated position, JBC's left shoulder is not turned anywhere near far enough to create an open path from JFK's throat to JBC's thigh. He has to exaggerate JBC's position at Z193 to even show a theoretical possibility of his SBT 2.0 scenario. This is why I said earlier it is impossible.

I appreciate the fair critique of my Sketchup 3D skills.  Jerry Organ does a much better job. 

But the position of the shoulder is really not that important.  It is the position of the lower and middle back that matters because the bullet is travelling on a downward slope of 18 degrees relative to the car at that point and just passes over the back of the jump seat:


So it would have to pass by the middle/lower back, not the shoulder or upper back, in order to strike the thigh directly.  But I do appreciate that you think the trajectory intersecting with the left side of JBC is possible.  It all depends on how much JBC is turned in z193.  I suggest he is turned to past the sightline to Zapruder which is 30 degrees or a 1 o'clock position but it is difficult to be exact because of the poor resolution.  It is at least a 1:30/45 degree turn.