Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[John Corbett]

That 6.6 secs estimate is for the Z190-Z313 shots in the hypothetical 3 shot sequence that Andrew proposes. If the avg Z- film speed is 18.5 frames/sec and 313-190=123 frames then 123/18.5=6.649 secs.

There was ONE of the CBS time trial shooters ( an OLD guy like me ) who managed to score 3 hits on the easy to see red human shape on a large black square that was moving on a white track clearly visible and where no tree was an obstacle and where the shooter could set up with rifle pointing out the window before the target started moving. And he managed to score 3 hits in about 5.6 seconds on his first attempt.

So there’s that LOL.

I believe the average for the Z-film was 18.3 fps, but let's not quibble.

I have no idea why CBS tried to shoehorn the shooting into a 5.6 second time frame because that was never a conclusion of the WC. They allowed for that possibility but never said that's what happened. In short, CBS screwed the pooch when they did that exercise.

[Andrew Mason]

In Andrew’s Z190 1st shot theory, which shot  is CE 399?

And what’s the likely path of z190 shot after it exited JFKs throat?

CE399 was the first bullet that struck JFK when he was between the lamp post and Thornton sign.  I put it at or just before z193, after which JFK is seen to turn forward. This bullet passed through JFK’s neck without encountering anything capable of changing its direction.  Where it went after that is a matter of placing both men in positions seen in the zfilm at z190-193 and seeing where a straight line points. It could not have passed to the far right side of Connnally at that point. So the only possibility would seem to be that it caused a wound to JBC on his left side.

My best guess would be that since  the Z190 bullet trajectory is more acute than a Z223 shot  trajectory   that the bullet after exiting JFK throat would have gone thru the front seat just to the left of Kellerman and buried into the front dash board.

It was on a downward slope at z190:


It doesn’t look like it would have struck the dashboard.

Not saying I’m agreeing with this Z190 1st shot idea but at least it’s consistent with 3 shots fired in about 6.6 secs which is close together as most witness heard and a fair match to Harold Norman’s spacing in his boom click  click sequence.

And if I’m remembering  right, Andrew has the 2nd shot at about Z285? And that shot then must be the one That went thru JCs wrist bone and then into his left thigh yes?

At z285 Connally is already falling back and Greer is turned around, which he said he did at the time of the second shot. I suggest the shot was at z271-272.  His forward motion/recoil begins at z271-272.  The hair on JFK’s right side flies up at z273-276 (Hickey observed this on the second shot).

Yet it looks like to me that JC has already lifted up the hat suddenly by Z230 which is about 2.5 secs BEFORE Z285. If the hat is up in his right hand at Z285, not sure how the shot at Z285 which strikes him in the left thigh would  have gone thru the wrist?

The thigh wound did not occur on the second shot. JBC never felt the thigh wound.

[John Corbett]

CE399 was the first bullet that struck JFK when he was between the lamp post and Thornton sign. I put it at or just before z193, after which JFK is seen to turn forward.

The Z-film puts it about 1.5 seconds later. I'm going with that.

 This bullet passed through JFK’s neck without encountering anything capable of changing its direction.  Where it went after that is a matter of placing both men in positions seen in the zfilm at z190-193 and seeing where a straight line points. It could not have passed to the far right side of Connnally at that point. So the only possibility would seem to be that it caused a wound to JBC on his left side.
It was on a downward slope at z190:

JBC's right side was directly in line with the exit wound in JFK's throat. You make the same mistake the CTs do in assuming JBC was seated directly in front of JFK. It would require a magic bullet for the bullet exiting JFK's throat to hit JBC on his left side.

It doesn’t look like it would have struck the dashboard.

At z285 Connally is already falling back and Greer is turned around, which he said he did at the time of the second shot. I suggest the shot was at z271-272.  His forward motion/recoil begins at z271-272.  The hair on JFK’s right side flies up at z273-276 (Hickey observed this on the second shot).
The thigh wound did not occur on the second shot. JBC never felt the thigh wound.

You keep trying to drive a square peg into a round hole. None of this fits the visual evidence of the Z-film.

[Mitch Todd]

MT:

Thanks for your comments.

It could be hubris, or more gently, an informed but incorrect opinion on Cyril Wecht's part.

Wecht has credentials on this topic far exceeding mine, so I am loath to contradict Wecht. I lean to Wecht's explanation.

My layman's opinion is Gov JBC could not have held his right-hand grip on the Stetson after being shot through the dorsal side of the right wrist by the large and heavy slug, issued from an M-C.

The M-C, and related Western Cartridge ammo, is right on the borderline of what is considered a high-powered rifle (or carbine if you want to get technical).

The average muzzle velocity of the Western Cartridge Company (WCC) 6.5×52mm Carcano ammunition (CE-399) fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was approximately 2,165 feet per second (fps).

The slug might have slowed down by the time it struck JBC's wrist, if we assume it passed through JBC's chest first.

Curiously, the WC held that the Western Cartridge slug "tumbled" inside of JBC's wrist, causing even more damage than if it had tunneled through. Ouch!

Like I said, I am just a layman, but...really? JBC held onto the Stetson even after CE-399 "tumbled" through his wrist?

Another side question: After the Western Cartridge slug passed through JBC's wrist, then it burrowed into JBC left thigh, by the WC account.

After that, the slug from the thigh should have been retrieved by a nurse or attendant, and put into an envelope. All hospitals, even then, saved bullets as standard procedure, and all gunshots had to be reported to local police, for good and obvious reasons.

I would expect that in such a high-profile murder and attempted murder case, the slug from JBC's thigh would, of course, be placed into an envelope and marked by a nurse or attendant as such. This is really basic. I cannot imagine these procedures were not followed.

Yet the WC holds that CE-399 was found several floors below the JBC operating room, either on the floor, or near or underneath a gurney, near an elevator, by Parkland employee Darryl Tomlinson.

Huh?

That has always struck me as curious. I will probably post on this soon.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.

BC: It could be hubris, or more gently, an informed but incorrect opinion on Cyril Wecht's part. Wecht has credentials on this topic far exceeding mine, so I am loath to contradict Wecht. I lean to Wecht's explanation.

Other experienced MEs (Baden, Loqvam, Spitz, et al) don't have a problem with Connaly continuing to hold his hat. Artwohl, an MD if not an ME, was also okay with it. In the realm of medical experts who pay attention to the issue, Wecht is in a small minority here. It may even be a minority of one.


Curiously, the WC held that the Western Cartridge slug "tumbled" inside of JBC's wrist, causing even more damage than if it had tunneled through. Ouch!

Something like that. The WC maintained, after Gregory, that the bullet was traveling backwards when it struck Connally's wrist. The presence of a small metallic fragment just below the surface of the thigh wound indicated to them that the bullet was still travelling backwards when it his the thigh. The bullet must have begun tumbling before it hit the wrist in order for it to impact butt-first, but it doesn't seem to have tumbled too much while travelling through the wrist and into the thigh. All of that being said, would it really have made a difference?


[BC] After that, the slug from the thigh should have been retrieved by a nurse or attendant, and put into an envelope. All hospitals, even then, saved bullets as standard procedure, and all gunshots had to be reported to local police, for good and obvious reasons. I would expect that in such a high-profile murder and attempted murder case, the slug from JBC's thigh would, of course, be placed into an envelope and marked by a nurse or attendant as such. This is really basic. I cannot imagine these procedures were not followed.

Oh boy, would that have been helpful, now wouldn't it!?

CE399 was picked up by a SS agent stationed in the hallway near the elevators after being ratted out by Tomlinson. There was then a short comedic interlude whereby the SS agent, Parkland security director OP Wright, and a couple of FBI men argued over  who should have jurisdiction over the bullet. Presumably, the SS guy though he was being clever when he chose "rock", while Wright and the FBI guys were more experienced at this and all chose "paper," Leaving the Secret Service in possession of the little copper-coated t*rducken.

BTW, there is one coincidence involving CE399 that I find provocative, and have never seen discussed. Many skeptics say that CE399 was found not on Connally's stretcher, but on a different stretcher that carried a young boy named Ronnie Fuller back to minor surgery to have a nasty cut sewn up. This stretcher was piloted through the Parkland ER suite by a nurse's aide named Rosa Majors. But that's not the only role she played that day. Before Fuller needed help, Majors was in Trauma Room 2 while the medical staff was assessing Connally's wounds.  Her job there was to take possession of Connally's clothing, removing and collecting Connally's personal effects therefrom. That would have put her in prime contention of finding a bullet that had fallen from the wound in Connally's thigh. And if CE399 was indeed found on Fuller's stretcher, and was deliberately placed on it, then she becomes a prime suspect in placing there.

[John Corbett]

BTW, there is one coincidence involving CE399 that I find provocative, and have never seen discussed. Many skeptics say that CE399 was found not on Connally's stretcher, but on a different stretcher that carried a young boy named Ronnie Fuller back to minor surgery to have a nasty cut sewn up. This stretcher was piloted through the Parkland ER suite by a nurse's aide named Rosa Majors. But that's not the only role she played that day. Before Fuller needed help, Majors was in Trauma Room 2 while the medical staff was assessing Connally's wounds.  Her job there was to take possession of Connally's clothing, removing and collecting Connally's personal effects therefrom. That would have put her in prime contention of finding a bullet that had fallen from the wound in Connally's thigh. And if CE399 was indeed found on Fuller's stretcher, and was deliberately placed on it, then she becomes a prime suspect in placing there.

The confusion started with Tomlinson being unsure which stretcher CE399 was on. Recently SS Agent Paul Landis further muddied the waters with his statement that he found a bullet on the seat of the limo and put it in his pocket. He later placed it on a stretcher. It seems plausible to me that the bullet that made the shallow entry into JBC's thing before popping out could end up on his car seat. Also plausible Landis would put it in his pocket. It seems very odd to me that he would just casually put the bullet down on a stretcher. I can understand the Landis was probably not involved in many if any crime scene investigations but common sense should have told him that was a key piece of evidence that needed to be secured. I don't know if we can ever be sure exactly where  CE399 ended up but the important this is we know where it came from, Oswald's rifle.

[Andrew Mason]

The Z-film puts it about 1.5 seconds later. I'm going with that.

Do you mean your interpretation of the zfilm or what is unequivocally displayed in the zfilm?

JBC's right side was directly in line with the exit wound in JFK's throat. You make the same mistake the CTs do in assuming JBC was seated directly in front of JFK.

No. I put JBC to the left of JFK by 10-20 cm or 4-8 inches which is what Itek Corp. determined:



The problem is that the wound in JBC’s back was 20 cm right of JBC’s midline putting the back wound directly in front of JFK’s midline but no farther left:



At z220 the angle from the SN to the car direction was at least 12 degrees. A bullet through JFK exiting a tad left of his midline (to the left side of the tie knot) on a right to left angle of 12 degrees would have traveled farther left before reaching JBC. With the plane of JBC’s back being at least 24 inches from JFK’s exit wound, this means the bullet had to have gone left another 24tan12=5.1 inches before striking JBC. That puts it 5.1 inches left of where the wound was.  And that is assuming the maximum offset of the two men.

It would require a magic bullet for the bullet exiting JFK's throat to hit JBC on his left side.

At z193 the angle through JFK was about 16 degrees:


So the bullet would have passed about 7 inches farther left, ie. 1 inch left of JBC’s spine. If JBC was a few inches farther ahead or less than 6 inches (4 is within the Itek margin) left of JFK, it could have passed 3-4 inches left of JBC’s spine. With JBC turned right as he was at z193 it would have missed the back entirely.  One can easily see how the bullet through JFK goes to JBC’s left side in the Secret Service film recreation:
. No magic required!

[John Corbett]

Do you mean your interpretation of the zfilm or what is unequivocally displayed in the zfilm?

I mean my observation that JBC's jacket suddenly bulged out at Z224 and two frames later both JFK and JBC both suddenly flipped their arms upward in perfect unison. After which JFK is seen leaning forward and to his left with his hands up around his throat and JBC doubles over and dips to his right, gyrates in his seat for a few more seconds before collapsing into Nellie's lap. Yeah, that interpretation. So what's your interpretation of that sequence?

No. I put JBC to the left of JFK by 10-20 cm or 4-8 inches which is what Itek Corp. determined:

It was a closer to 8. David Powers was filming from the QM directly behind the JFK limo. We can see the left side of JBC's torso.  The jump seat was 6 inches inboard from the side of the car and JBC would likely have been centered in that seat, not on the right side of it. JFK was as far right as he could be. One of the films showing the limo starting up at Love Field shows JFK's arm was hanging down the side of the car.

The problem is that the wound in JBC’s back was 20 cm right of JBC’s midline putting the back wound directly in front of JFK’s midline but no farther left:

You're forgetting that JBC had rotated his shoulders to the right which changes the geometry and moves the entry point on his back a few inches to the left.

At z220 the angle from the SN to the car direction was at least 12 degrees. A bullet through JFK exiting a tad left of his midline (to the left side of the tie knot) on a right to left angle of 12 degrees would have traveled farther left before reaching JBC. With the plane of JBC’s back being at least 24 inches from JFK’s exit wound, this means the bullet had to have gone left another 24tan12=5.1 inches before striking JBC. That puts it 5.1 inches left of where the wound was.  And that is assuming the maximum offset of the two men.
At z193 the angle through JFK was about 16 degrees:

Again, you fail to factor in JBC's torso rotation.

So the bullet would have passed about 7 inches farther left, ie. 1 inch left of JBC’s spine. If JBC was a few inches farther ahead or less than 6 inches (4 is within the Itek margin) left of JFK, it could have passed 3-4 inches left of JBC’s spine. With JBC turned right as he was at z193 it would have missed the back entirely.  One can easily see how the bullet through JFK goes to JBC’s left side in the Secret Service film recreation:
. No magic required!

Faulty premises lead to faulty conclusions. I find Dale Myers virtual 3D rendition far more impressive than your chicken scratches. His simulation shows the wounds line up perfectly for a shot from the sniper's nest.