JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on April 20, 2026, 06:31:09 AM ---Well, I gave you 9 pages of the evidence that the last two shots were closer together than the first two. I am not going to do that every time I mention it. I am just going to refer to the body of evidence bearing this out. Do you not agree that this large body of evidence set out in those 9 pages is evidence of the 1......2.
..3 shot pattern? Ditto for the 20+ witnesses that said JFN reacted to the first shot and the other 7 bodies of evidence.
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You gave us 9 pages of witnesses recollections which is the most unreliable source of evidence we have and your arguments which are not evidence at all.
--- Quote ---What is the normal reaction to being shot through the neck?
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I don't know if there is such a thing as a "normal reaction" but if there is, it probably looks a lot like what JFK did starting at Z226.
--- Quote ---The change starts at z193-194. By z222 he has moved left and his hands are clenched in front of him.
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Are we still talking about JFK? He is not even visible at Z222. On what basis do you say he has moved left? Your imagination?
--- Quote ---It may be that he did not immediately know that he had been shot through the neck. It may be that he did not realize how serious things were until he tried to take a breath and realized he couldn't breathe. A person takes a breath about every 4 seconds so maybe his dramatic reaction at z226 is when he took that next breath. (He was also wearing a complete upper body corset so when he moves his entire torso moves).
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The more you try to save this turkey of a scenario you are presenting, the sillier you sound.
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He is not waving after z193. The change begins after z193.
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https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z200.jpg
Open your eyes!!! He most certainly is calmly waving to the spectators on Elm as we can see the white cuff of his right hand up in the air and his head is turned toward the spectators. I could have picked just above any from Z193-205 that shows the same thing. JFK begins to go behind the sign at Z205 and he is blocked from our view for just about one second. Just before he goes behind the sign he had started to lower his right hand. His right hand is still part way up when it becomes visible at Z224 and when we compare that frame to Z225, his arm is still being lowered at that point but is still part way up. It isn't until Z226 that his arms and JBC's right arm start moving rapidly upward in reaction to the single bullet having passed through both of them a few frames earlier. It's impossible to pinpoint the precise moment that single bullet struck but it would have been slightly before JBC's jacket bulged out at Z224.
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He turns forward, brings his hand down and eventually his arm. By z222 both hands are up in front of him and are cupped or clenched. That is about 1.5 seconds and we really don't know when those hands took that position because he was behind the sign before then..
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Pure BS. JFK is not even visible at Z222. His right hand becomes visible at Z224 and when we compare that to Z225 when his face reappears. his hand was still moving downward at Z225. it was at frame Z226 that his arms start to move dramatically upward.
--- Quote ---So his previous actions could not be a reaction to the shot through his neck?
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So says Dr. Andrew Mason.
--- Quote --- They asked more than 50 witnesses
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Oh, brother. More cherry picked witnesses. I'll gladly take the Z-film over all 50 of those witnesses. I would say the same if it was 500 or 5000.
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what happened and the thrust of what they said happened is similar. But you do have to read what they said.
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No I don't because we have the Z-film and that tells me exactly what happened and it trumps the recollections of every witness in DP.
--- Quote ---Maybe because his back/shoulders were turned sharply right. Maybe he was not as far left as you suggest. Itek said 4-8 inches. If he was 4 inches inside and leaning forward a bit, it could have passed 4-5 inches or so from his spine.
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4-5 inches from his spine would still result in a wound to his back. The fact the entry wound was near his right armpit indicates the bullet passed farther to the right than your silly figuring tells you.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: David Von Pein on April 20, 2026, 04:33:02 AM --- Thumb1:
"Yes, in my opinion, the HSCA was most certainly incorrect in its assessment that JFK was showing signs of being struck by a bullet as early as Zapruder frame 190. And I think the proof that the HSCA was dead wrong about that timing issue can be found later in that same Zapruder Film, in frames 224 thru 226. Because if Kennedy was hit as early as Z190, then there's no way we'd be seeing JFK doing what he's doing with the hands as late as Z226. That jerking upward of his hands would certainly have occurred well prior to Z226 if he had been hit as early as Z190." -- DVP; May 5, 2024
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/30407-favorite-author-jim-dieugenio-favorite-researcher-pat-speer/page/3/#findComment-535251
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Are you suggesting the reaction beginning at z226 could not possibly be a reaction to being unable to breathe?
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Robin Unger on April 20, 2026, 04:17:49 AM ---
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That's an excellent view of the critical frames. When JFK reappears at Z225, he has been shot but his right arm was still moving downward at Z225, a motion he began shortly before he went behind the sign. We know that by comparing the position of his right arm to Z224. It is lower at Z225. It wasn't until Z226 that JFK's arm starts upward, the same frame JBC's arm started upward.
DVP has argued that at Z225 JFK and JBC both show other signs of being struck and he might be right about that. He bases that on JFK's facial expression at Z225. Given the low resolution of the Z-film and we can't compare JFK's facial expression to Z224, I don't think that is conclusive. There is
no question that JBC's right shoulder dips dramatically at Z225 but I simply can't say whether that is a reflexive response or it is being moved by the force of the bullet. Either seems possible to me.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: John Corbett on April 20, 2026, 01:20:56 PM ---You gave us 9 pages of witnesses recollections which is the most unreliable source of evidence we have and your arguments which are not evidence at all.
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I see you didn’t read those 9 pages. If you had you would realize how consistently similar the witnesses are and realize how improbable it is that you could get a distribution of witness evidence that like this;
where the vast majority were all wrong, yet the same witnesses provided this distribution of the number of shots and were right:
--- Quote ---Are we still talking about JFK? He is not even visible at Z222. On what basis do you say he has moved left? Your imagination?
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I should have said z224 when we first see his hands and left shoulder. We can see his hands and body in z225 and we can see that the hands remain in the same position when we see that he is no longer up against the right side of the car and is obviously showing signs of reacting to his neck wound. He remains in that position when he brings his hands to his face. Here is the whole sequence:
--- Quote ---The more you try to save this turkey of a scenario you are presenting, the sillier you sound.https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z200.jpg
Open your eyes!!! He most certainly is calmly waving to the spectators on Elm as we can see the white cuff of his right hand up in the air and his head is turned toward the spectators. I could have picked just above any from Z193-205 that shows the same thing.
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Ok. We know you disagree with the HSCA photographic panel that JFK was showing a reaction to a severe external stimulus by z207 from a shot at z190. I am simply pointing out that the change begins at z193. Here is the entire sequence:
--- Quote ---4-5 inches from his spine would still result in a wound to his back. The fact the entry wound was near his right armpit indicates the bullet passed farther to the right than your silly figuring tells you.
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Not with JBC turned sharply right:
Finally, all I am saying is that one does not have to reject large bodies of witness evidence to reach the conclusion that all shots were fired from the SN. The SBT is not only inconsistent with large bodies of evidence, it is not required to support the conclusion that Oswald fired all three shots. The rest of the evidence shows that.
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on April 20, 2026, 02:31:57 PM ---I see you didn’t read those 9 pages. If you had you would realize how consistently similar the witnesses are and realize how improbable it is that you could get a distribution of witness evidence that like this;
where the vast majority were all wrong, yet the same witnesses provided this distribution of the number of shots and were right:
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I don't care how consistent they are with each other, they're not consistent with the Z-film which makes them all wrong. They also aren't right about the shot distribution unless the first shot was fired before Zapruder resumed filming, a theory which some have advanced but which I do not subscribe to.
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I should have said z224 when we first see his hands and left shoulder. We can see his hands and body in z225 and we can see that the hands remain in the same position when we see that he is no longer up against the right side of the car and is obviously showing signs of reacting to his neck wound. He remains in that position when he brings his hands to his face. Here is the whole sequence:
Ok. We know you disagree with the HSCA photographic panel that JFK was showing a reaction to a severe external stimulus by z207 from a shot at z190. I am simply pointing out that the change begins at z193. Here is the entire sequence:
Not with JBC turned sharply right:
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The only thing we see JFK doing from Z189 until he disappears behind the sign is slowly lowering his right hand after waving to the few remaining spectators on the section of Elm St.
The HSCA conclusions are doo-doo with the exception of the FPP who inserted some sanity into the proceedings. How could JFK be showing a reaction at Z207 when the only thing we can see is a blurry view of the top half of his head? Do you ever bother to scrutinize these claims before you post them.
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Finally, all I am saying is that one does not have to reject large bodies of witness evidence to reach the conclusion that all shots were fired from the SN. The SBT is not only inconsistent with large bodies of evidence, it is not required to support the conclusion that Oswald fired all three shots. The rest of the evidence shows that.
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One has to reject the large body of witnesses who gave accounts incompatible with the Z-film. The SBT is consistent with the Z-film and that trumps the recollections of ALL the witnesses you have cited which are inconsistent with the Z-film.
There is one thing that I disagree with the WCR on and agree with the CTs is that without the SBT, there would have to have been two shooters and a conspiracy. The SBT is essential to the conclusion that there was only one gunman. Fortunately, we have the Z-film which shows the SBT is valid. I go so far as agreeing with Dale Myers when he said it isn't a single bullet theory. It is a single bullet fact. It should be noted that Myers began as a devoted CT and it was only after intense examination of the evidence that he became convinced that WC had it right all along..
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