Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[Andrew Mason]

You let the evidence drive your beliefs. You don't try to bend the evidence to fit your beliefs.

I would suggest that objectivity requires not having any belief, especially pre-conceived beliefs.

Just how did you come to that conclusion?

Do you think two seconds would make much difference to whether his lung didn't collapse until he got to Parkland?

There were two holes, one in the back and the other in the front. Air entering through either would result in a collapsed lung. There was nothing occluding the back hole until he fell back onto his wife at about z280.  The right arm was moving until about z250 when it appears to have covered the location of the front wound.

You can determine that from the two dimensional Z-film?Oh, goody. We have someone else who puts absolute faith in witness recollections
Not really.Would you care to debate that?What record would that be?

There are 20+ witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first wound in ways not seen in the zfilm until after z193. They are: T.E. Moore; Nellie Connally; David Powers; Gayle Newman; William Newman; John Chism; Faye Chism; James Altgens; Abraham Zapruder; Clint Hill; Linda Willis; George Hickey; Sam Kinney; Paul Landis; Cecil Ault; Harold Norman; Malcolm Summers; Mary Moorman; Jean Newman; Charles Brehm; znc Pierce Allman. Not a single witness said he smiled and waved after the first shot, let alone for 3 seconds.

There were 40+ witnesses who said that the last two shots were close together, which means the first shot must have hit JFK because he is reacting 5 seconds before the last shot.  Here they are:

Yes, because another group of witnesses remember it differently. and the Z-film supports them. JBC said he turned to look over his right shoulder when he heard the first shot. He did that at Z164.

Do you really think Governor Connally is trying desperately to see JFK at z164 or even 193-198?:
Even JBC did not suggest that he turned to look at JFK there.  He thought he must have turned when he was behind the Stemmons sign.  At this point JFK is as far right as he could be. Earlier in the motorcade JBC had turned to chat with JFK and had no difficulty seeing him.

Then there was Rosemary Willis who quit running after the limo and stopped running and turned back to look in the direction of the TSBD. She began that in the early Z170s. I don't put my faith in witnesses based on whether or not they tell a story I choose to believe. I believe the witnesses that can be corroborated.

Rosemary's sister, Linda, said that the first shot occurred when JFK was between her and the Stemmons sign, in her line of sight.
There is certainly lots of corroboration for the 1.......2...3 shot pattern, first shot after z186, first shot causes visible reaction to JFK, JFK reacting before second shot, last two shots in quick succession but still distinct shots.

For example, SS Agent Bennett said he was scanning the crowd to the right when he heard the first shot. He then turned to look at JFK and SAW the second shot strike him below his right shoulder. Bennett wrote that in his notes on the flight back to Washington. That is significant because JFK was on his back the whole time he was at Parkland and the only way Bennett could have known about the back wound was if he saw it strike JFK.

Glen Bennett gave a statement that is materially different than his earlier notes and was never called and never cross-examined on the differences. In the first, he recalled two shots (CE 2112):

• At this point I heard a noise that immediately reminded me of a firecracker. I immediately, upon hearing the supposed fire cracker, looked at the Boss's car. At this exact time I saw a shot that hit the Boss about 4 inches down from the right shoulder; a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the Boss's head.

He appears to be saying that he heard and "immediately" looked at the President and saw a shot that had hit the President about 4 inches down from the right shoulder.

In his statement written the next day, possibly after hearing others talk about three shots, he said there were three shots and the second shot struck the President. He is the only witness who said this and his evidence is not only uncorroborated, it is different than his first statement.  There are 20+ others who disagree with Bennett's last statement (see above list).

[John Corbett]

I would suggest that objectivity requires not having any belief, especially pre-conceived beliefs.

That sounds nice in theory but it's just not human nature. I believed from day one Oswald was the assassin and I'm sure most people did as well. I was surprised when I came home from school that they already had him in custody and it was being reported he also killed a cop. An objective person is one who is willing to change his beliefs when confronted with evidence that is inconsistent with his beliefs. I have never seen any evidence which would make me question that Oswald was the assassin. There is just way to much evidence that says he is. For a brief time, I became a CT because of a documentary by Jack Anderson that aired some time in the 1980s. The more I looked at it, however, I saw the case for conspiracy just didn't hold up to scrutiny. There was also a time even when I was an LN that I doubted the SBT. Again, upon further review, I realized the SBT was not only rock solid but a single bullet fact.

There were two holes, one in the back and the other in the front. Air entering through either would result in a collapsed lung. There was nothing occluding the back hole until he fell back onto his wife at about z280.  The right arm was moving until about z250 when it appears to have covered the location of the front wound.

Which medical school did you attend?

{quote]
There are 20+ witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first wound in ways not seen in the zfilm until after z193. They are: T.E. Moore; Nellie Connally; David Powers; Gayle Newman; William Newman; John Chism; Faye Chism; James Altgens; Abraham Zapruder; Clint Hill; Linda Willis; George Hickey; Sam Kinney; Paul Landis; Cecil Ault; Harold Norman; Malcolm Summers; Mary Moorman; Jean Newman; Charles Brehm; znc Pierce Allman. Not a single witness said he smiled and waved after the first shot, let alone for 3 seconds.
[/quote]

I am not impressed by arguments that begin, "So-and-so said..." because I know there are other so-and-sos who have said something different. That's why I put my faith in forensic evidence. It is a much more reliable way of determining the truth because it can often tell us which so-and-sos got it right and which so-and-sos got it wrong. I've seen the Z-film enough times to know JFK didn't seem to react until he was hit by the SECOND shot coming at or about Z222. I do not know why JFK did not react to the sound of the first shot but he was hardly the only one. Clint Hill didn't react to that first shot and he only remembers hearing 2 shots, the second and the third. Charles Brehm can be seen in the background of the Z-film still clapping after JFK had been hit by the second shot.

There were 40+ witnesses who said that the last two shots were close together, which means the first shot must have hit JFK because he is reacting 5 seconds before the last shot.  Here they are:

More So=and-so-said crap. I will never understand why people put so much faith in eyewitness accounts because eyewitnesses can be, and frequently are dead wrong about important details. I believe witnesses who can be corroborated. The others, not so much.
{quote]
Do you really think Governor Connally is trying desperately to see JFK here:

[/quote]

Well if you want to believe witnesses, JBC said he instantly recognized the first shot as the sound of a high powered rifle and that it was an assassination attempt.  He said he turned to look over his right shoulder because that's where the sound seemed to come from.  He can be seen turning to look over his right shoulder beginning at Z164, so he is corroborated.

This is how JBC described the first shot and his reaction to it when he testified to the WC:

"Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.
We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right

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shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.
So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."

So, yes, I believe JBC was trying to get a look at JFK but was unable to do so.

Even JBC did not suggest that he turned to look at JFK there.

The testimony I just quoted says otherwise.   

He thought he must have turned when he was behind the Stemmons sign.  At this point JFK is as far right as he could be. Earlier in the motorcade JBC had turned to chat with JFK and had no difficulty seeing him.

Earlier he was not under fire and could manipulate his body into a position to see JFK out of the corner of his eye. He couldn't do that with the quick turn he made beginning at Z164.

Then there was Rosemary Willis who quit running after the limo and stopped running and turned back to look in the direction of the TSBD. She began that in the early Z170s. I don't put my faith in witnesses based on whether or not they tell a story I choose to believe. I believe the witnesses that can be corroborated.
Lots of corroboration for the 1.......2...3 shot pattern, first shot after z186, first shot causes visible reaction to JFK, JFK reacting before second shot, last two shots in quick succession but still distinct shots.Glen Bennett gave a statement that is materially different than his earlier notes and was never called and never cross-examined on the differences. In the first, he recalled two shots (CE 2112):

Nobdy was cross-examined by the WC. It was not an adversarial hearing. It was a fact finding body.
{quote]

• At this point I heard a noise that immediately reminded me of a firecracker. I immediately, upon hearing the supposed fire cracker, looked at the Boss's car. At this exact time I saw a shot that hit the Boss about 4 inches down from the right shoulder; a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the Boss's head.

He appears to be saying that he heard and "immediately" looked at the President and saw a shot that had hit the President about 4 inches down from the right shoulder.
[/quote]

I'd say he was pretty damn close.

In his statement written the next day, possibly after hearing others talk about three shots, he said there were three shots and the second shot struck the President. He is the only witness who said this and his evidence is not only uncorroborated, it is different than his first statement.  There are 20+ others who disagree with Bennett's last statement (see above list).

He was the only witness who said that because he was the only one who turned toward JFK in time to see him hit by that second shot. All of his on the record statements speak of 3 shots. The first show which he only heard, followed by the two shots which hit JFK, the first of these in the back and the second which was the head shot.

[Zeon Mason]

In Andrew’s Z190 1st shot theory, which shot  is CE 399?

And what’s the likely path of z190 shot after it exited JFKs throat?

My best guess would be that since  the Z190 bullet trajectory is more acute than a Z223 shot  trajectory   that the bullet after exiting JFK throat would have gone thru the front seat just to the left of Kellerman and buried into the front dash board.

Not saying I’m agreeing with this Z190 1st shot idea but at least it’s consistent with 3 shots fired in about 6.6 secs which is close together as most witness heard and a fair match to Harold Norman’s spacing in his boom click  click sequence.

And if I’m remembering  right, Andrew has the 2nd shot at about Z285? And that shot then must be the one That went thru JCs wrist bone and then into his left thigh yes?

Yet it looks like to me that JC has already lifted up the hat suddenly by Z230 which is about 2.5 secs BEFORE Z285. If the hat is up in his right hand at Z285, not sure how the shot at Z285 which strikes him in the left thigh would  have gone thru the wrist?

[John Corbett]

In Andrew’s Z190 1st shot theory, which shot  is CE 399?

And what’s the likely path of z190 shot after it exited JFKs throat?

My best guess would be that since  the Z190 bullet trajectory is more acute than a Z223 shot  trajectory   that the bullet after exiting JFK throat would have gone thru the front seat just to the left of Kellerman and buried into the front dash board.

Not saying I’m agreeing with this Z190 1st shot idea but at least it’s consistent with 3 shots fired in about 6.6 secs which is close together as most witness heard and a fair match to Harold Norman’s spacing in his boom click  click sequence.

And if I’m remembering  right, Andrew has the 2nd shot at about Z285? And that shot then must be the one That went thru JCs wrist bone and then into his left thigh yes?

Yet it looks like to me that JC has already lifted up the hat suddenly by Z230 which is about 2.5 secs BEFORE Z285. If the hat is up in his right hand at Z285, not sure how the shot at Z285 which strikes him in the left thigh would  have gone thru the wrist?

You have correctly identified one of the problems with Andrew's misguided beliefs in that JBC suddenly flipped his right arm upward at Z226 which is the same frame that JFK's arms started moving upward. Coincidence? NAH!!!

I don't know how you concluded 3 shots were fired in 6.6 seconds.

[Andrew Mason]

Which medical school did you attend?

This is a physics issue. Lungs expand to draw air into the lungs because they are in a sealed low pressure pleural cavity. If the seal is breached and air is allowed to flow into the pleural cavity, the lung will collapse. If there is a hole from the back to the pleural cavity and a hole from the front, there are two pathways for the pleural cavity to draw air. There is nothing obstructing the back/right armpit prior to about z280. 

I am not impressed by arguments that begin, "So-and-so said..." because I know there are other so-and-sos who have said something different. That's why I put my faith in forensic evidence. It is a much more reliable way of determining the truth because it can often tell us which so-and-sos got it right and which so-and-sos got it wrong. I've seen the Z-film enough times to know JFK didn't seem to react until he was hit by the SECOND shot coming at or about Z222.

That's not forensic science. That is you interpreting what you think has happened in equivocal parts of the zfilm. Not even the WC went as far as to say they could tell when the first two shots occurred. In fact, they had a whole section that explained all the various possibilities that they considered.

Studies have shown (Loftus, Eyewitness Testimony) that witnesses are quite accurate and complete in recalling details that more than 50% of the witnesses recalled. For details that were not as easily noticed, they are still likely to be more than 50% accurate and complete.  In this case, many people recalled three shots, that JFK reacted to the first and that the last two were close together.  Here is the chart from Loftus, Ch. 3 (p. 27):

I do not know why JFK did not react to the sound of the first shot but he was hardly the only one. Clint Hill didn't react to that first shot and he only remembers hearing 2 shots, the second and the third. Charles Brehm can be seen in the background of the Z-film still clapping after JFK had been hit by the second shot.

Maybe Charles Brehm and JFK did not react before z193 because there had not been a shot. That would fit with Betzner, Croft, Linda Willis, Phil Willis, Mary Woodward and another dozen or so witnesses along Elm St.

And maybe Clint Hill did react to the first shot. He said he did.  He said he stepped off the car after hearing the first shot and seeing the President react.  He said later during an interview at the Sixth Floor Museum that he was told by others in the car that the second shot happened after he leapt off the running board but he did not hear it, possibly because he was along side of the QM engine.  He said he heard the third shot and saw its effects.  So, according to Hill, he recalled the first and last shots.

More So=and-so-said crap. I will never understand why people put so much faith in eyewitness accounts because eyewitnesses can be, and frequently are dead wrong about important details. I believe witnesses who can be corroborated. The others, not so much.

Witnesses are most often corroborated by other independent witnesses.  If 20 people independently recalled JFK reacting to the first shot, you might want to explain the probability that they independently recalled that and independently failed to see JFK continue to smile and wave for several seconds...

Well if you want to believe witnesses, JBC said he instantly recognized the first shot as the sound of a high powered rifle and that it was an assassination attempt.  He said he turned to look over his right shoulder because that's where the sound seemed to come from.  He can be seen turning to look over his right shoulder beginning at Z164, so he is corroborated.

....
So, yes, I believe JBC was trying to get a look at JFK but was unable to do so.

So why do you think JBC did not turn his head rearward if he was trying to look at JFK?  He never turns to face the rear. I can't find anywhere before z230 where he attempts to look over his shoulder.  That requires turning one's face relative to one's shoulders. I can turn my head more than 90 degrees.  He didn't try to turn it at all relative to his shoulders.