JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: John Corbett on April 15, 2026, 09:44:39 PM ---Your theory has not improved with age. It makes no more sense now than when you were peddling it on John McAdams' forum almost 20 years ago. Anyone who thinks JBC was not hit until after Z225 can't be looking at frames Z220-255 objectively.
--- End quote ---
What is your standard of objectivity? You seem to ignore the problems with: the hand of JFK covering the exit path from the neck; that there is no evidence of impact or damage or blood; that there is nothing occluding the exit wound in the chest to prevent a collapsed lung which JBC did not experience until he reached Parkland; that there is no right to left path from the SN through JFK that goes to JBC's right side; that there is no path though JBC's torso that would explain the wrist wound; and that the shot pattern recalled by the vast majority of witnesses means there was only one shot before the midpoint and that midpoint is well after z225.
In any event, my point was that the SBT conflicts with large bodies of mutually consistent evidence. That is not even debatable - it is a matter of record. You just happen to think that all the witnesses who put the first shot well after z186 (Betzner, Croft, occupants of VP car, VP security car, persons along Elm St. where JFK's car was passing or had just passed when the first shot was heard), that JFK reacted visibly to it (20+ witnesses), and that the last two shots were closer together (40+ witnesses), were all wrong. Is that being objective?
--- Quote ---JBC's first reaction came when he suddenly flipped his right arm up and down beginning at Z226 and lasting about a half second. Do you think he flipped his arm up and down in anticipation of being shot a few seconds later? Following his arm flip, he immediately turns and dips to his right before twisting further to his right until he was facing JFK.
--- End quote ---
No. I suggest that he moved his arm because he was preparing to do the turn to the rear that he then performs. He said he turned to the rear to see JFK after hearing the first shot but before being hit in the back. He wasn't going to turn rearward with his arm down on his lap. He makes no attempt to see JFK prior to that turn which begins at about z228.
--- Quote ---There's only one explanation that fits the Z-film throughout the shooting sequence. There was an early missed shot. My analysis tells me that shot was fired at or about Z151, although I will concede the evidence for that is not absolute proof. That is followed by Connally beginning to turn toward his right in reaction to a shot he judged to be behind him and to his right. Some have theorized the missed shot occurred before Zapruder resumed filming but that requires a very slow reaction not only from JBC but Rosemary Willis as well.
--- End quote ---
So why does Rosemary turn suddenly back toward the TSBD at z202-206:
Why would Betzner say his z186 photo was just before the first shot? Why would the occupants of the VP car say the first shot was just after they completed the turn and were going down Elm St. (it is almost finished the turn when last seen at z180). Why would occupants of the VP security car say that the first shot was as they were almost finished the turn and were parallel to the TSBD? Why would Mrs. Cabell say the first shot occurred when their car had entered the intersection?
You say there is only one explanation for the behaviour we see after z151. Why would Mary Woodward say that JFK's turn and wave to her group after they shouted to them (that being the last such acknowledgement that he made) was before the first horrible ear-shattering noise? She heard three distinct shots, with the last two close together.
--- Quote ---There's no way I will ever believe it is a coincidence that both men moved their arms upward at exactly the same frame if they were not reacting to the same stimulus. For those who don't believe JBC was hit until several seconds later, what do they think could have caused JBC's rapid up and down arm movement at Z226?
--- End quote ---
It is not a coincidence. They are both reacting to the same thing: the first shot. JFK has already begun reacting behind the Stemmons sign as we see from his position in z224 and 225 so his movements at z226 are not his first. JBC began to react at about z226-228.
Mitch Todd:
--- Quote from: Benjamin Cole on April 14, 2026, 08:22:41 AM ---MT Thanks for your comment.
"The radial nerve covers the extensor muscles of the hand. Holding the hat requires the flexors, not the extensors. The radial nerve transection, then, wouldn't be expected to prevent Connally from continuing to hold the hat."--MT
The WC said something along those lines too. Maybe so.
Cyril Wecht had the opposite opinion, as I cited above.
My layman's view is the impact and injury to the wrist would have dislodged Gov. JBC's grip from the hat, and likely did.
I rather suspect it was Texas Lore, that "and the Gov. was still holding onto to his Stetson hat." A sign of defiance and strength, in the face of dire adversity.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
--- End quote ---
BC: Cyril Wecht had the opposite opinion, as I cited above.
No matter what Wecht says, the functions of the radial nerve are well understood and can be found in any anatomy and physiology textbook. If Wecht differs, that may just be a case of hubris on his part.
Benjamin Cole:
MT:
Thanks for your comments.
It could be hubris, or more gently, an informed but incorrect opinion on Cyril Wecht's part.
Wecht has credentials on this topic far exceeding mine, so I am loath to contradict Wecht. I lean to Wecht's explanation.
My layman's opinion is Gov JBC could not have held his right-hand grip on the Stetson after being shot through the dorsal side of the right wrist by the large and heavy slug, issued from an M-C.
The M-C, and related Western Cartridge ammo, is right on the borderline of what is considered a high-powered rifle (or carbine if you want to get technical).
The average muzzle velocity of the Western Cartridge Company (WCC) 6.5×52mm Carcano ammunition (CE-399) fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was approximately 2,165 feet per second (fps).
The slug might have slowed down by the time it struck JBC's wrist, if we assume it passed through JBC's chest first.
Curiously, the WC held that the Western Cartridge slug "tumbled" inside of JBC's wrist, causing even more damage than if it had tunneled through. Ouch!
Like I said, I am just a layman, but...really? JBC held onto the Stetson even after CE-399 "tumbled" through his wrist?
Another side question: After the Western Cartridge slug passed through JBC's wrist, then it burrowed into JBC left thigh, by the WC account.
After that, the slug from the thigh should have been retrieved by a nurse or attendant, and put into an envelope. All hospitals, even then, saved bullets as standard procedure, and all gunshots had to be reported to local police, for good and obvious reasons.
I would expect that in such a high-profile murder and attempted murder case, the slug from JBC's thigh would, of course, be placed into an envelope and marked by a nurse or attendant as such. This is really basic. I cannot imagine these procedures were not followed.
Yet the WC holds that CE-399 was found several floors below the JBC operating room, either on the floor, or near or underneath a gurney, near an elevator, by Parkland employee Darryl Tomlinson.
Huh?
That has always struck me as curious. I will probably post on this soon.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on April 16, 2026, 12:19:58 AM ---What is your standard of objectivity?
--- End quote ---
You let the evidence drive your beliefs. You don't try to bend the evidence to fit your beliefs.
--- Quote ---You seem to ignore the problems with: the hand of JFK covering the exit path from the neck;
--- End quote ---
Just how did you come to that conclusion?
--- Quote --- that there is no evidence of impact or damage or blood; that there is nothing occluding the exit wound in the chest to prevent a collapsed lung which JBC did not experience until he reached Parkland;
--- End quote ---
Do you think two seconds would make much difference to whether his lung didn't collapse until he got to Parkland?
--- Quote --- that there is no right to left path from the SN through JFK that goes to JBC's right side;
--- End quote ---
You can determine that from the two dimensional Z-film?
--- Quote --- that there is no path though JBC's torso that would explain the wrist wound; and that the shot pattern recalled by the vast majority of witnesses means there was only one shot before the midpoint and that midpoint is well after z225.
--- End quote ---
Oh, goody. We have someone else who puts absolute faith in witness recollections.
--- Quote ---
In any event, my point was that the SBT conflicts with large bodies of mutually consistent evidence.
--- End quote ---
Not really.
--- Quote ---That is not even debatable
--- End quote ---
Would you care to debate that?
--- Quote --- it is a matter of record.
--- End quote ---
What record would that be?
--- Quote ---
You just happen to think that all the witnesses who put the first shot well after z186 (Betzner, Croft, occupants of VP car, VP security car, persons along Elm St. where JFK's car was passing or had just passed when the first shot was heard), that JFK reacted visibly to it (20+ witnesses), and that the last two shots were closer together (40+ witnesses), were all wrong. Is that being objective?
--- End quote ---
Yes, because another group of witnesses remember it differently. and the Z-film supports them. JBC said he turned to look over his right shoulder when he heard the first shot. He did that at Z164. Then there was Rosemary Willis who quit running after the limo and stopped running and turned back to look in the direction of the TSBD. She began that in the early Z170s. I don't put my faith in witnesses based on whether or not they tell a story I choose to believe. I believe the witnesses that can be corroborated. For example, SS Agent Bennett said he was scanning the crowd to the right when he heard the first shot. He then turned to look at JFK and SAW the second shot strike him below his right shoulder. Bennett wrote that in his notes on the flight back to Washington. That is significant because JFK was on his back the whole time he was at Parkland and the only way Bennett could have known about the back wound was if he saw it strike JFK.
--- Quote ---
No. I suggest that he moved his arm because he was preparing to do the turn to the rear that he then performs. He said he turned to the rear to see JFK after hearing the first shot but before being hit in the back. He wasn't going to turn rearward with his arm down on his lap. He makes no attempt to see JFK prior to that turn which begins at about z228.
--- End quote ---
Go back and look at the Z=film. Tell me what JBC does starting at Z164.
--- Quote ---So why does Rosemary turn suddenly back toward the TSBD at z202-206:
--- End quote ---
Rosemary Willis did not suddenly turn back toward the TSBD in the 200s. She was running with the limo when she heard the first shot. She couldn't be expected to stop on a dime. She first slowed to a stop and then looked back. She started slowing in the Z170s.
Why would Betzner say his z186 photo was just before the first shot?
{/quote]
You'd have to ask Betzner.
--- Quote ---
Why would the occupants of the VP car say the first shot was just after they completed the turn and were going down Elm St.
--- End quote ---
WOW! There's a precise description.
--- Quote ---
(it is almost finished the turn when last seen at z180). Why would occupants of the VP security car say that the first shot was as they were almost finished the turn and were parallel to the TSBD? Why would Mrs. Cabell say the first shot occurred when their car had entered the intersection?
--- End quote ---
You keep cherry picking the witnesses who support what you choose to believe. I choose to believe the witnesses who can be corroborated by the Z-film.
--- Quote ---
You say there is only one explanation for the behaviour we see after z151.
--- End quote ---
I don't remember saying that. I said it is my belief that the jiggle at Z158 was likely caused by a shot at Z151. I have acknowledged that the jiggle is not proof positive. Coupled with JBC's turn which began at Z164, it seems probable to me that is when the first shot was fired. Some have argued for a much earlier shot but that requires a very slow reaction by JBC. You would have us believe the shot came after JBC started to turn to look over his right shoulder.
--- Quote ---Why would Mary Woodward say that JFK's turn and wave to her group after they shouted to them (that being the last such acknowledgement that he made) was before the first horrible ear-shattering noise? She heard three distinct shots, with the last two close together.
--- End quote ---
What evidence do you have to corroborate Mary Woodward?
The weakest form of evidence I have seen in the 35 years I have debated this subject online are statements that begin "So-and-so said...". Just because a witness says something doesn't establish it as fact. Witnesses often get things wrong. Often they get very important things wrong.
--- Quote ---It is not a coincidence. They are both reacting to the same thing: the first shot. JFK has already begun reacting behind the Stemmons sign as we see from his position in z224 and 225 so his movements at z226 are not his first. JBC began to react at about z226-228.
--- End quote ---
JFK's hand was still moving down at Z225. His arms didn't start up until Z226, the same frame JBC flipped his injured right arm upward.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: John Corbett on April 16, 2026, 04:59:43 AM ---You let the evidence drive your beliefs. You don't try to bend the evidence to fit your beliefs.
--- End quote ---
I would suggest that objectivity requires not having any belief, especially pre-conceived beliefs.
--- Quote ---Just how did you come to that conclusion?
Do you think two seconds would make much difference to whether his lung didn't collapse until he got to Parkland?
--- End quote ---
There were two holes, one in the back and the other in the front. Air entering through either would result in a collapsed lung. There was nothing occluding the back hole until he fell back onto his wife at about z280. The right arm was moving until about z250 when it appears to have covered the location of the front wound.
--- Quote ---You can determine that from the two dimensional Z-film?Oh, goody. We have someone else who puts absolute faith in witness recollections
Not really.Would you care to debate that?What record would that be?
--- End quote ---
There are 20+ witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first wound in ways not seen in the zfilm until after z193. They are: T.E. Moore; Nellie Connally; David Powers; Gayle Newman; William Newman; John Chism; Faye Chism; James Altgens; Abraham Zapruder; Clint Hill; Linda Willis; George Hickey; Sam Kinney; Paul Landis; Cecil Ault; Harold Norman; Malcolm Summers; Mary Moorman; Jean Newman; Charles Brehm; znc Pierce Allman. Not a single witness said he smiled and waved after the first shot, let alone for 3 seconds.
There were 40+ witnesses who said that the last two shots were close together, which means the first shot must have hit JFK because he is reacting 5 seconds before the last shot. Here they are:
--- Quote ---Yes, because another group of witnesses remember it differently. and the Z-film supports them. JBC said he turned to look over his right shoulder when he heard the first shot. He did that at Z164.
--- End quote ---
Do you really think Governor Connally is trying desperately to see JFK at z164 or even 193-198?:
Even JBC did not suggest that he turned to look at JFK there. He thought he must have turned when he was behind the Stemmons sign. At this point JFK is as far right as he could be. Earlier in the motorcade JBC had turned to chat with JFK and had no difficulty seeing him.
--- Quote ---Then there was Rosemary Willis who quit running after the limo and stopped running and turned back to look in the direction of the TSBD. She began that in the early Z170s. I don't put my faith in witnesses based on whether or not they tell a story I choose to believe. I believe the witnesses that can be corroborated.
--- End quote ---
Rosemary's sister, Linda, said that the first shot occurred when JFK was between her and the Stemmons sign, in her line of sight.
There is certainly lots of corroboration for the 1.......2...3 shot pattern, first shot after z186, first shot causes visible reaction to JFK, JFK reacting before second shot, last two shots in quick succession but still distinct shots.
--- Quote ---
For example, SS Agent Bennett said he was scanning the crowd to the right when he heard the first shot. He then turned to look at JFK and SAW the second shot strike him below his right shoulder. Bennett wrote that in his notes on the flight back to Washington. That is significant because JFK was on his back the whole time he was at Parkland and the only way Bennett could have known about the back wound was if he saw it strike JFK.
--- End quote ---
Glen Bennett gave a statement that is materially different than his earlier notes and was never called and never cross-examined on the differences. In the first, he recalled two shots (CE 2112):
* At this point I heard a noise that immediately reminded me of a firecracker. I immediately, upon hearing the supposed fire cracker, looked at the Boss's car. At this exact time I saw a shot that hit the Boss about 4 inches down from the right shoulder; a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the Boss's head.He appears to be saying that he heard and "immediately" looked at the President and saw a shot that had hit the President about 4 inches down from the right shoulder.
In his statement written the next day, possibly after hearing others talk about three shots, he said there were three shots and the second shot struck the President. He is the only witness who said this and his evidence is not only uncorroborated, it is different than his first statement. There are 20+ others who disagree with Bennett's last statement (see above list).
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version