Mark Lane and Charles Brehm

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

1) Connally eventually admitted that the first shot may have missed everything and that he and JFK may have been hit by the second shot.

JFKA conspiracy theorist John Simkin, himself, posted the following at the so-called JFK Assassination Debate -- Education Forum:

On 26th June 1967, John and Nellie Connally gave an interview to Walter Cronkite and Eddie Barker on CBS Television:

Walter Cronkite: The most persuasive critic of the single-bullet theory is the man who might be expected to know best, the victim himself, Texas Governor John Connally. Although he accepts the Warren Report's conclusion that Oswald did all the shooting, he has never believed that the first bullet could have hit both the President and himself.

John Connally: The only way that I could ever reconcile my memory of what happened and what occurred, with respect to the one bullet theory, is that it had to be the second bullet that might have hit us both.

Eddie Barker: Do you believe, Governor Connally, that the first bullet could have missed, the second one hit both of you, and the third one hit President Kennedy?

John Connally: That's possible. That's possible.


2) The Zapruder films shows both the jacket bulge and the lapel flip.

Thanx for that.
Re the bulge.... i think that there iz a hint of a possible bulge at Z222. Its hard to say, koz of the blackish blurry featureless jacket.

[John Corbett]

Thanx for that.
Re the bulge.... i think that there iz a hint of a possible bulge at Z222. Its hard to say, koz of the blackish blurry featureless jacket.

I've never taken the position that the single bullet struck during Z224, only that it is possible. It's also possible it could have struck during the gap between Z223 and Z224 or even during Z223. You have raised the possibility of a Z222 strike which I cannot dismiss. What we don't know is how much of a time lag, if any, there would be between the bullet passing through the front of JBC's jacket and the jacket bulging out. The reason I say that is because I've seen super slow motion footage of a bullet passing through wood. The bullet exits first and the splinters follow behind it. We are splitting hairs here because it is a matter of small fractions of a second and the Z-film simply doesn't have enough frames per second to precisely measure these events. The difference between a Z222 strike and a Z224 strike is only 1/9 of a second.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

I've never taken the position that the single bullet struck during Z224, only that it is possible. It's also possible it could have struck during the gap between Z223 and Z224 or even during Z223. You have raised the possibility of a Z222 strike which I cannot dismiss. What we don't know is how much of a time lag, if any, there would be between the bullet passing through the front of JBC's jacket and the jacket bulging out. The reason I say that is because I've seen super slow motion footage of a bullet passing through wood. The bullet exits first and the splinters follow behind it. We are splitting hairs here because it is a matter of small fractions of a second and the Z-film simply doesn't have enough frames per second to precisely measure these events. The difference between a Z222 strike and a Z224 strike is only 1/9 of a second.

I answered all of that a long time ago.
The timings from Lattimer's tests for lapel flip indicates a shot at z219.
But i hav pointed out that the design of Lattimer's test jacket (hiz jacket had a long lapel) & the pozzy of Lattimer's shot (he shot higher than in 1963)(& hiz slug hit hiz 1994 lapel & took a big chunk out of it) indicates that the shot woz at Z218, which iz what i hav sayd all along.

[John Corbett]

I answered all of that a long time ago.
The timings from Lattimer's tests for lapel flip indicates a shot at z219.
But i hav pointed out that the design of Lattimer's test jacket (hiz jacket had a long lapel) & the pozzy of Lattimer's shot (he shot higher than in 1963)(& hiz slug hit hiz 1994 lapel & took a big chunk out of it) indicates that the shot woz at Z218, which iz what i hav sayd all along.

I find it interesting that Lattimer tested that. I've long hypothesized that there could be a brief time lag between the single bullet passing through JFK and JBC and JBC's jacket bulging out and wished that somebody would test that hypothesis. Now you are saying that had been done. I am surprised at how much lag time you and Lattimer believe there was, but I don't dispute it. 

I don't think we can assign precision to these tests because of the variables. Did Lattimer fire a shot directly through the jacket? If so, it would be pristine and meet much less resistance by the jacket as it passed through the material. The single bullet was not pristine as it exited JFK's throat. It began yawing immediately and based on the shape of the entrance wound on JBC's back, the axis of the bullet would have been almost perpendicular to the flight. It likely would have had a similar orientation when passing through the front of JBC's jacket. A pristine bullet, i.e. one that is not yawing, is going to meet little resistance when passing through a soft object. I have shot empty aluminum cans with my .44 Magnum and they don't even budge. My layman's opinion is that the more yaw, the more resistance a bullet will be met with. The more resistance, the quicker we would expect to see the jacket bulge. Again, this is my hypothesis, but I lack the means to test it out.

To me, the best indication of the time each shot was fired is the jiggle we see in Zapruder's film following each shot. Because the distance from Oswald's rifle to Zapruder's ears was a constant for all three shots, we should expect a similar time lag between shot and jiggle for all three shots. Let's start with the third shot since that is the easiest to pinpoint. A bullet striking JFK's head at Z313 would have taken about 2 frames to travel the 88 yards from Oswald to JFK. That would mean the shot was fired at Z311, followed by a severely blurred frame at Z318. That gives us a baseline of 7 frames between the shot being fired and Zapruder's involuntary response. If we apply that to the second shot, we see a blurring at Z227. Working back 7 frames would indicate a shot fired at Z220, close to what you and Lattimer have hypothesized. If we apply that to when I think the first shot was fired, we see a bad blurring at Z158 which would equate to a shot at Z151.

We need to recognize the limitations of our time piece which is Zapruder's camera. When I say there would be a 7 frame lag between the firing of the shot and Zapruder's reaction, that is an approximation. Even if that figure is a constant for all three shots, there's no reason to assume that number is going to be an integer. In fact, most likely it is not. Maybe it is 6.74 frames or maybe it is 7.31 frames or any number near 7. We would need to conduct a test using a camera capable of thousands of frames per second to determine a more precise lag time between shot and reaction. The best we can do with what we have is calculate an approximation, accurate to with 1/18 of a second.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

I find it interesting that Lattimer tested that. I've long hypothesized that there could be a brief time lag between the single bullet passing through JFK and JBC and JBC's jacket bulging out and wished that somebody would test that hypothesis. Now you are saying that had been done. I am surprised at how much lag time you and Lattimer believe there was, but I don't dispute it. 

I don't think we can assign precision to these tests because of the variables. Did Lattimer fire a shot directly through the jacket? If so, it would be pristine and meet much less resistance by the jacket as it passed through the material. The single bullet was not pristine as it exited JFK's throat. It began yawing immediately and based on the shape of the entrance wound on JBC's back, the axis of the bullet would have been almost perpendicular to the flight. It likely would have had a similar orientation when passing through the front of JBC's jacket. A pristine bullet, i.e. one that is not yawing, is going to meet little resistance when passing through a soft object. I have shot empty aluminum cans with my .44 Magnum and they don't even budge. My layman's opinion is that the more yaw, the more resistance a bullet will be met with. The more resistance, the quicker we would expect to see the jacket bulge. Again, this is my hypothesis, but I lack the means to test it out.

To me, the best indication of the time each shot was fired is the jiggle we see in Zapruder's film following each shot. Because the distance from Oswald's rifle to Zapruder's ears was a constant for all three shots, we should expect a similar time lag between shot and jiggle for all three shots. Let's start with the third shot since that is the easiest to pinpoint. A bullet striking JFK's head at Z313 would have taken about 2 frames to travel the 88 yards from Oswald to JFK. That would mean the shot was fired at Z311, followed by a severely blurred frame at Z318. That gives us a baseline of 7 frames between the shot being fired and Zapruder's involuntary response. If we apply that to the second shot, we see a blurring at Z227. Working back 7 frames would indicate a shot fired at Z220, close to what you and Lattimer have hypothesized. If we apply that to when I think the first shot was fired, we see a bad blurring at Z158 which would equate to a shot at Z151.

We need to recognize the limitations of our time piece which is Zapruder's camera. When I say there would be a 7 frame lag between the firing of the shot and Zapruder's reaction, that is an approximation. Even if that figure is a constant for all three shots, there's no reason to assume that number is going to be an integer. In fact, most likely it is not. Maybe it is 6.74 frames or maybe it is 7.31 frames or any number near 7. We would need to conduct a test using a camera capable of thousands of frames per second to determine a more precise lag time between shot and reaction. The best we can do with what we have is calculate an approximation, accurate to with 1/18 of a second.

Yes re Lattimer's tests. All of that iz in my thread re the lapel flip.
And, there iz no bulge & no flip unless the slug yaws before it hits Connally.
Which confirms the SBT.
Anyone (eg wecht) that duznt see that the SBT iz true in less than one day must hav a mental disorder (or 2 ovem)(or more).
And i did my own analysis of zapruder re jiggle, in the same thread i think.
My jiggle measurements contradicted others'.
I looked at jiggle in all of the zapruder footage. I karnt remember the rezults. But there woz no useful jiggle at about Z312.

[John Corbett]

Yes re Lattimer's tests. All of that iz in my thread re the lapel flip.
And, there iz no bulge & no flip unless the slug yaws before it hits Connally.
Which confirms the SBT.
Anyone (eg wecht) that duznt see that the SBT iz true in less than one day must hav a mental disorder (or 2 ovem)(or more).
And i did my own analysis of zapruder re jiggle, in the same thread i think.
My jiggle measurements contradicted others'.
I looked at jiggle in all of the zapruder footage. I karnt remember the rezults. But there woz no useful jiggle at about Z312.

Of course there would be no jiggle at Z312. In each case the jiggle would occur AFTER the bullet struck. The muzzle velocity of the Carcano was roughly twice the speed of sound so the bullet would hit the target before the sound reached Zapruder's ears. The headshot would have been fired at or about Z311. The sound of the head shot would have reached Zapruder's ears at or about Z315. The jiggle occurred at Z318. That would mean Zapruder's startle reaction occurred about 3 frames after the sound of the shot reached him. Seems about right to me.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Of course there would be no jiggle at Z312. In each case the jiggle would occur AFTER the bullet struck. The muzzle velocity of the Carcano was roughly twice the speed of sound so the bullet would hit the target before the sound reached Zapruder's ears. The headshot would have been fired at or about Z311. The sound of the head shot would have reached Zapruder's ears at or about Z315. The jiggle occurred at Z318. That would mean Zapruder's startle reaction occurred about 3 frames after the sound of the shot reached him. Seems about right to me.

Yes.
In my threads i calculated all shots sounds of shots landings of shots etc etc for different points in Dealey.