Podcast On Tippit

[Martin Weidmann]

Helen Markham, standing at the northwest corner of Tenth and Patton, testified to the Warren Commission that the cop-killer (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a short jacket that was open in the front and was grayish-tan in color.

Domingo Benavides, passing by in his pickup truck, saw Tippit's patrol car stopped near the curb and stated that the officer (Tippit) was talking to a man on foot.  Benavides heard the shots and saw the killer run from the scene.  Benavides testified to the Warren Commission that the killer was wearing a light-beige jacket, and that the jacket was lightweight.

William Scoggins, sitting in his cab (facing north on Patton towards the intersection with Tenth Street), was eating lunch when he noticed Tippit's patrol car travel from west to east on Tenth Street, crossing through the intersection with Patton.  Scoggins saw the patrol car come to a stop and noticed the officer having a conversation with a man who was walking on the sidewalk.  Scoggins heard the shots, looked up and saw the man running towards his cab.  Scoggins got out of his cab and hid beside it as the cop-killer passed.  He (Scoggins) testified that the man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) was wearing a light-colored jacket.

Virginia Davis was inside the same house on Tenth Street as was her sister-in-law, Barbara, when she heard the shots.  Virginia went to the door and saw a man cutting across the yard with a gun in his hands.  Virginia testified to the Warren Commission that the man (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Ted Callaway was on the front porch of his office near the alley between Tenth and Jefferson when he heard the shots come from the vicinity of Tenth Street.  He saw a man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) cutting across the yard of the house on the corner (Barbara and Virginia Davis) and noticed William Scoggins ducking beside the cab as the man passed, running down Patton from Tenth, holding a gun in his hands.  Callaway stated that the man had on a light tannish-gray windbreaker jacket.  Callaway testified to the Warren Commission that CE-162 (the jacket found on the ground under a car at the Texaco lot) looked like the jacket that the man was wearing as he was running from the scene.

Sam Guinyard was on Patton Ave. when he heard the shots.  Like the others, Guinyard saw the man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) cut across the yard of the Davis house on the corner of Tenth and Patton.  Guinyard testified that the man was running down Patton with a gun in his hands.  Guinyard testified to the Warren Commission that Oswald was wearing sort of a light-gray-looking jacket as he ran from the scene.

Thanks for helping John Mytton out. He was struggling, so now he can relax a bit.

Helen Markham, standing at the northwest corner of Tenth and Patton, testified to the Warren Commission that the cop-killer (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a short jacket that was open in the front and was grayish-tan in color.

As you mention Markham, there's something I have wanted to ask you ever since you did that video interview. Let me establish the context first. Markham testified that she took her usual bus to work from Jefferson at 1.15. You made a big deal about the time table showing there was a bus at 1.12 an 1.22 and I agreed it could have been either bus; a delayed 1.12 or indeed 1.22. The point is that if you take the same bus to work, you normally would try to get to the bus stop a few minutes earlier than the scheduled departure time. I know I did in my late teens when I caught the bus to my first, very modest, job. So, let's say for argument's sake that Markham would have at least tried to have gotten to the bus stop some three minutes earlier, at around 1.12 perhaps 1.13. Would that be fair?

Now we know from the FBI that Markham had to walk two blocks, from 9th street to Jefferson and that walking each block would have taken her 2,5 to 3 minutes. So, in order to get to the bus stop at a fairly safe time she would have had to leave 9th street at around 1.06 or 1.07, right?

Here's the problem I can't solve, so perhaps you can help me. Dale Myers has Markham standing on the corner of 10th and Patton when Tippit drives by. There's anything unusual to see a police cruiser pass by, she you would expect that after the car had passed, she would just cross the street and carry on walking to get to the bus stop on time. Right? But according to Myers, Markham didn't do that and I have never been able to understand that. Perhaps it would have been more understandable if Markham had a bit more spare time before she had to be at the bus stop, but why in the world would she risk missing her bus to observe for two minutes or so a police car? Can you explain that to me?

Now, let's just get back to the FBI timing of the walking distance. If we assume that Markham would have tried to be at least two minutes earlier at the bus stop to catch her bus at 1.15, and she did leave 9th street at 1.06 or 1.07, that would have gotten her to 10th and Patton at 1.10, perhaps 1.11. But according to Myers, and you argree with him, Tippit was shot at around 1.14.30. So what am I missing here? Did Markham get to 10th and Patton at 1.11 and stayed there for several minutes, or did she leave 9th street several minutes later at the risk of not getting to the bus stop on time. Can you make sense of this?

[David Von Pein]

So what am I missing here? Did Markham get to 10th and Patton at 1.11 and stayed there for several minutes, or did she leave 9th street several minutes later at the risk of not getting to the bus stop on time. Can you make sense of this?

If presented with the analysis that Bud provided HERE, Vincent Bugliosi would very likely have been able to accept the "1:26" timing for Markham's bus arrival.

The reason why Bugliosi had trouble accepting the 1:12 time is because if that time were ACTUALLY CORRECT, it would mean that Mrs. Markham would have missed her bus most of the time (if we're to also accept as fact that she caught her bus at 1:15 PM each day). And how likely is it that she was constantly missing the 1:12 bus because she just refused to get there in time? Not very likely, is it?

So, of course, Vince could very easily accept a wider differential in time, because it would mean Markham wouldn't be missing her bus every single day.

Bugliosi's reasoning in rejecting the 1:12 time is just as he stated in his book....

"I find it very hard to believe it routinely came by at that [1:12 PM] time. If it did, with Markham thinking it came by at 1:15, I wonder how she didn’t miss the bus a lot and was able to keep her job." -- VB

Now, who would routinely get to a bus stop at 1:15 to try and catch a 1:12 bus? That's why Bugliosi had doubts about the "1:12" time.

My guess is that Helen Markham very likely timed it so that she would be at the Jefferson & Patton bus stop at approximately 1:15 every day, and she would (of course) then catch the next bus to come by that was going downtown (whenever that was, at 1:22, or 1:26, whenever). That way, she would be a little early to catch the next bus. Makes sense to me anyway. And the FBI report in CD630 clearly indicates that "the bus is scheduled to pass this point [at Patton and Jefferson] at about 1:12 PM and every ten minutes thereafter".

So it's fairly clear that if Mrs. Markham didn't catch the 1:12 bus, she could have caught another bus at about 1:22 or 1:32. And since she didn't have to be at work until 2:30 PM, there was plenty of time to spare, even if she had to take one of those later busses.

But it makes no sense for her to regularly get to the bus stop at 1:15 if she was really trying to catch a 1:12 bus. That's crazy.

Lots more Bus Talk here:
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1242.html

[Martin Weidmann]

It's one thing for a light coloured garment to look different in various lighting conditions but white has no pigment to alter.

Mr. BALL. How was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. He had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and a lithe sort of light-gray-looking jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he had on?
Mrs.V DAVIS. He had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

Mrs. MARY BROCK, 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, she was at the Ballew Texaco Service Station located in the 600 block of Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas. She advised that at approximately 1:30 PM a white male described as approximately 30 years of age; 5 feet, 10 inches; light—colored complexion, wearing light clothing, came past her walking at a fast pace, wearing a light—colored jacket and with his hands in his pockets.

Mr. BENAVIDES - I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight.
Mr. BELIN - Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember?
Mr. BENAVIDES - It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket.

The jackets are extremely similar in size, shape and shade, they could almost be identical, what a coincidence, eh!



Anyway, I did an image search for a vintage 1963 men's jacket and out of nearly 100 results, there is nothing that really comes close to Oswald's jacket, but in your scenario Oswald's jacket was a near identical match for some random jacket that your make believe cop killer was wearing. Like I said the chances were not good but I guess in CT fantasy land anything is possible! Hahahaha!



BTW Frazier said that Oswald was wearing a grey jacket that morning, so much for your grey Jacket left at Irving BS! LOL!

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

JohnM

It's one thing for a light coloured garment to look different in various lighting conditions but white has no pigment to alter.

Really? So if somebody wearing a white jacket is standing in the shade, the jacket is still shown to be white. Is that what you are saying? HAHAHAHAHAHA

The jackets are extremely similar in size, shape and shade, they could almost be identical, what a coincidence, eh!

So, you are just looking at a couple of photographs (you didn't actually examine both jackets!) and then simply conclude the jackets in the photos are identical, regardless of the fact of one jacket the back and very long sleeves is shown and the other shows the front with not so long sleeves.

You are so full of it!

Anyway, I did an image search for a vintage 1963 men's jacket and out of nearly 100 results, there is nothing that really comes close to Oswald's jacket, but in your scenario Oswald's jacket was a near identical match for some random jacket that your make believe cop killer was wearing. Like I said the chances were not good but I guess in CT fantasy land anything is possible! Hahahaha

You frequently say a great many crazy and stupid things, but this one goes into the top ten. You find 100 men's jackets and none comes close to Oswald's jacket (which by itself is a nutty observation to make) and then you rather idiotically claim that I ever said that Oswald's jacket was a near identical match for some random jacket. I've never said anything of the kind. I have no way of knowing of both the jackets in the photos are similar or not. All I can say is that both jackets look to be of the Windbreaker type. But that's it. You really need to stop visiting cuckoo land. It's not good for you!

But here's a question for you; if the jackets were swapped and the white one disappeared, what makes you think that they needed to be similar in the first place. The only three people who we know actually saw the white jacket were Westbrook and two unnamed and unidentified patrol officers who likely never saw the jacket again. As for Westbrook, that guy was the personnel officer, but he was all over the Tippit scenes. What in the world was he doing there?

BTW Frazier said that Oswald was wearing a grey jacket that morning, so much for your grey Jacket left at Irving BS! LOL!

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

Hilariously stupid. Just how pathetic can you be? First of all, they found Oswald's dark grey jacket at the TSBD, so that's the one he must have been wearing on Friday morning.
Secondly, even if he had been wearing the light grey jacket that morning, then how in the world did that get to Oak Cliff for Oswald to pick it up and put on? Oswald left the TSBD wearing no jacket, right? Roberts said he entered the rooming house wearing no jacket, right? So, come on, genius, tell is how did the light grey jacket get to the rooming house if Oswald had worn it to the TSBD on Friday morning?

[Martin Weidmann]

If presented with the analysis that Bud provided HERE, Vincent Bugliosi would very likely have been able to accept the "1:26" timing for Markham's bus arrival.

The reason why Bugliosi had trouble accepting the 1:12 time is because if that time were ACTUALLY CORRECT, it would mean that Mrs. Markham would have missed her bus most of the time (if we're to also accept as fact that she caught her bus at 1:15 PM each day). And how likely is it that she was constantly missing the 1:12 bus because she just refused to get there in time? Not very likely, is it?

So, of course, Vince could very easily accept a wider differential in time, because it would mean Markham wouldn't be missing her bus every single day.

Bugliosi's reasoning in rejecting the 1:12 time is just as he stated in his book....

"I find it very hard to believe it routinely came by at that [1:12 PM] time. If it did, with Markham thinking it came by at 1:15, I wonder how she didn’t miss the bus a lot and was able to keep her job." -- VB

Now, who would routinely get to a bus stop at 1:15 to try and catch a 1:12 bus? That's why Bugliosi had doubts about the "1:12" time.

My guess is that Helen Markham very likely timed it so that she would be at the Jefferson & Patton bus stop at approximately 1:15 every day, and she would (of course) then catch the next bus to come by that was going downtown (whenever that was, at 1:22, or 1:26, whenever). That way, she would be a little early to catch the next bus. Makes sense to me anyway. And the FBI report in CD630 clearly indicates that "the bus is scheduled to pass this point [at Patton and Jefferson] at about 1:12 PM and every ten minutes thereafter".

So it's fairly clear that if Mrs. Markham didn't catch the 1:12 bus, she could have caught another bus at about 1:22 or 1:32. And since she didn't have to be at work until 2:30 PM, there was plenty of time to spare, even if she had to take one of those later busses.

But it makes no sense for her to regularly get to the bus stop at 1:15 if she was really trying to catch a 1:12 bus. That's crazy.

Lots more Bus Talk here:
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1242.html

My guess is that Helen Markham very likely timed it so that she would be at the Jefferson & Patton bus stop at approximately 1:15 every day, and she would (of course) then catch the next bus to come by that was going downtown (whenever that was, at 1:22, or 1:26, whenever). That way, she would be a little early to catch the next bus. Makes sense to me anyway.

I agree, that's the most likely scenario. Buses seldom run on exactly the time of their schedule. But Markham indicated that she would be at the bus stop at 1.15 and she would then just wait for the next bus to show up.

But that doesn't answer the question I asked Bill Brown. For Markham to get to the bus stop at 1.15 (regardles which bus she took, a delayed 1.12 or the 1.122) she still needed to walk two blocks in about five to six minutes to get there. So, she would have left 9th street at around 1.09 or 1.10 and get to 10th and Patton at about 1.13. According to Dale Myers, Tippit was shot at 1.14.30, so are we really to believe that Markham just stood around at the intersection of 10th and Patton for two minutes or so and likely risk (in her perception) missing her bus to work?
That doesn't make sense at all.

[Martin Weidmann]

OMG WOW!
After going through my collection of images I found a photo of the rear of Oswald's jacket and the similarity to the carpark photo is even more striking, at both ends across the back of Oswald's jacket we see a small elastic section where the fabric is gathered and allowed to stretch so as to provide a snug fit around the mid-section, this design is seen in both photos!!
To confirm the uniqueness of this find, I did a google image search across hundreds of jackets through many decades and couldn't find a single example that showed this unique pair of gathered elastic sections. So I went a bit more specific and searched "windbreaker jacket" and the best I could find was in the bottom photo which doesn't really gather in the same way.
Now I'm sure that eventually I could find one but it's clear that I've proven that Weidmann's scenario of Oswald's jacket matching some random jacket is basically extremely statistically unlikely. But don't trust me, do some research and see what you can find!





JohnM

After going through my collection of images I found a photo of the rear of Oswald's jacket and the similarity to the carpark photo is even more striking, at both ends across the back of Oswald's jacket we see a small elastic section where the fabric is gathered and allowed to stretch so as to provide a snug fit around the mid-section, this design is seen in both photos!!

Oh boy. Those elastic sections are in just about every jacket of that type. I have two windbreaker type jackets that have exactly the same elastic sections at the same place. No big deal. But what the photos do show (and Johnny simply ignores) is that the sleeves of the white jacket are far larger that the one's on Oswald's grey jacket. So much for similarity! You just see what you want to see.

To confirm the uniqueness of this find, I did a google image search across hundreds of jackets through many decades and couldn't find a single example that showed this unique pair of gathered elastic sections

Now why am I not surprised you didn't find any? HAHAHAHAHA

Now I'm sure that eventually I could find one but it's clear that I've proven that Weidmann's scenario of Oswald's jacket matching some random jacket is basically extremely statistically unlikely. But don't trust me, do some research and see what you can find!

Oh, I don't trust you for even a little bit. And you have proven exactly nothing except of course that you don't know how to google searches.

Btw, you do understand that you have cornered yourself massively by claiming that Oswald was wearing the light grey jacket to the TSBD on Friday morning, right?
Because, now you are going to have to explain how that same light grey jacket ended up in the rooming house on Friday midday for Oswald to zip it up in front of Roberts.
And if you can't explain that, your entire "jacket under the car" BS is exactly that.... BS

[Bill Brown]

OMG WOW!
After going through my collection of images I found a photo of the rear of Oswald's jacket and the similarity to the carpark photo is even more striking, at both ends across the back of Oswald's jacket we see a small elastic section where the fabric is gathered and allowed to stretch so as to provide a snug fit around the mid-section, this design is seen in both photos!!
To confirm the uniqueness of this find, I did a google image search across hundreds of jackets through many decades and couldn't find a single example that showed this unique pair of gathered elastic sections. So I went a bit more specific and searched "windbreaker jacket" and the best I could find was in the bottom photo which doesn't really gather in the same way.
Now I'm sure that eventually I could find one but it's clear that I've proven that Weidmann's scenario of Oswald's jacket matching some random jacket is basically extremely statistically unlikely. But don't trust me, do some research and see what you can find!





JohnM

GREAT find, John.  I've never caught that before.

Thanks.  That's very valuable.

[John Mytton]

Hilariously stupid. Just how pathetic can you be? First of all, they found Oswald's dark grey jacket at the TSBD, so that's the one he must have been wearing on Friday morning.
Secondly, even if he had been wearing the light grey jacket that morning, then how in the world did that get to Oak Cliff for Oswald to pick it up and put on? Oswald left the TSBD wearing no jacket, right? Roberts said he entered the rooming house wearing no jacket, right? So, come on, genius, tell is how did the light grey jacket get to the rooming house if Oswald had worn it to the TSBD on Friday morning?

Hahahaha! Gotcha, Frazier your star witness with the photographic memory had never seen CE163 ever before and don't forget that Frazier sat right next to Oswald for about half an hour on the way to work! And you expect Frazier to remember Oswald in the five or so minutes they walked from the car to the loading dock, where Oswald ended up about 50 feet away??



Mr. BALL - I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have.

 

JohnM

[John Mytton]

GREAT find, John.  I've never caught that before.

Thanks.  That's very valuable.

Yeah, you bet. It makes Weidmann's story about Jacket swaps more ridiculous than ever! He is such a Dufus. Anyway, here's a higher resolution photo that better shows the gathered material.



JohnM