Podcast On Tippit

[John Corbett]

What are you babbling about. I have always said that eyewitness testimony is the least reliable form of evidence.
But that doesn't mean that all eyewitnesses are always wrong.

It means we shouldn't assume what they have told us is factual if it cannot be corroborated.

[Bill Brown]

That's one hell of a memory. Identifying a person who walked past her at a fast pace, some two months earlier, from a photograph.

Or could the two months of massive media exposure and finger pointing at Oswald have something to do with it?

Scoggings, who identified Oswald in a line up couldn't identify him from a photo the next day...... Something wrong in paradise methinks!

That's one hell of a memory. Identifying a person who walked past her at a fast pace, some two months earlier, from a photograph.

Or could the two months of massive media exposure and finger pointing at Oswald have something to do with it?

You're accusing Mary Brock of telling the FBI that Oswald was the guy who ran past her in a jacket for no other reason than it was known by this time (2 months later) that Oswald was the alleged assassin and cop-killer.  This would be mighty low of Mary Brock.  What evidence do you have to support this?

Scoggings, who identified Oswald in a line up couldn't identify him from a photo the next day...... Something wrong in paradise methinks!

Please post whatever you have which suggests that Oswald, when running past Scoggins with a gun in his hands, looked exactly like he did in the photo shown to Scoggins.

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See what I did here?  Same thing you are doing.  If you can do it, than I can do it.

[Bill Brown]

It always amuses me when conspiracy hobbyists try to get Oswald off on technicalities. It is a tacit admission they know their client is guilty.

Our criminal courts have two very important missions, to find the truth while at the same time protecting the rights of the accused. Sometimes those two missions are at cross purposes and usually that means the courts come down on the side of protecting the rights of the accused, even if sometimes that means the guilty go free.

History has no such conflicts. It has no duty to protect the rights of the accused. It's sole purpose is to find the truth. That means looking at all available evidence without any concern for the rights of the accused. Even though Oswald was never tried in court, I have no problem concluding without a shadow of a doubt he was guilty. I feel the same way about O. J. Simpson. I can say without hesitation that both men were double murderers even though neither was ever convicted in court of those crimes. I'm glad they are both dead.

Great post.  I couldn't agree more with every single thing you said above.

[Bill Brown]

But one thing that's new is you're saying that the jacket found under the car was probably put under the car by the killer,

It is a plausible assumption.

so how do most of the witnesses, who saw the killer and say the jacket was a light coloured grey or beige suddenly becomes a white jacket? WOW!

Well, as you always claim, sunlight can cause the color to be different because of shade and depending from where you look and how far away you are.

Btw which witnesses said the jacket was light colored grey or beige?

BTW I like your story of how Oswald's jacket was the same type and style as the one seen being held by the Policeman in the video

Was it? I didn't say it was the same type and style. That's just your imagination filling in the blanks in a biased manner as per usual.
But it certainly looked similar but I've only seen a photo of the back side and there is no way to make the determination you want to make but can not support!

what are the chances that the Jackets are almost the same colour, same style and appear to be the same size.

Were they? Did you examine both jackets or are you just making this stuff up?

The more you try to create a narrative for your massive conspiracy, the more unwieldly, illogical and frankly ridiculous it becomes.

My massive conspiracy? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Btw which witnesses said the jacket was light colored grey or beige?

Helen Markham, standing at the northwest corner of Tenth and Patton, testified to the Warren Commission that the cop-killer (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a short jacket that was open in the front and was grayish-tan in color.

Domingo Benavides, passing by in his pickup truck, saw Tippit's patrol car stopped near the curb and stated that the officer (Tippit) was talking to a man on foot.  Benavides heard the shots and saw the killer run from the scene.  Benavides testified to the Warren Commission that the killer was wearing a light-beige jacket, and that the jacket was lightweight.

William Scoggins, sitting in his cab (facing north on Patton towards the intersection with Tenth Street), was eating lunch when he noticed Tippit's patrol car travel from west to east on Tenth Street, crossing through the intersection with Patton.  Scoggins saw the patrol car come to a stop and noticed the officer having a conversation with a man who was walking on the sidewalk.  Scoggins heard the shots, looked up and saw the man running towards his cab.  Scoggins got out of his cab and hid beside it as the cop-killer passed.  He (Scoggins) testified that the man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) was wearing a light-colored jacket.

Virginia Davis was inside the same house on Tenth Street as was her sister-in-law, Barbara, when she heard the shots.  Virginia went to the door and saw a man cutting across the yard with a gun in his hands.  Virginia testified to the Warren Commission that the man (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Ted Callaway was on the front porch of his office near the alley between Tenth and Jefferson when he heard the shots come from the vicinity of Tenth Street.  He saw a man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) cutting across the yard of the house on the corner (Barbara and Virginia Davis) and noticed William Scoggins ducking beside the cab as the man passed, running down Patton from Tenth, holding a gun in his hands.  Callaway stated that the man had on a light tannish-gray windbreaker jacket.  Callaway testified to the Warren Commission that CE-162 (the jacket found on the ground under a car at the Texaco lot) looked like the jacket that the man was wearing as he was running from the scene.

Sam Guinyard was on Patton Ave. when he heard the shots.  Like the others, Guinyard saw the man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) cut across the yard of the Davis house on the corner of Tenth and Patton.  Guinyard testified that the man was running down Patton with a gun in his hands.  Guinyard testified to the Warren Commission that Oswald was wearing sort of a light-gray-looking jacket as he ran from the scene.

[John Mytton]

But one thing that's new is you're saying that the jacket found under the car was probably put under the car by the killer,

It is a plausible assumption.

so how do most of the witnesses, who saw the killer and say the jacket was a light coloured grey or beige suddenly becomes a white jacket? WOW!

Well, as you always claim, sunlight can cause the color to be different because of shade and depending from where you look and how far away you are.

Btw which witnesses said the jacket was light colored grey or beige?

BTW I like your story of how Oswald's jacket was the same type and style as the one seen being held by the Policeman in the video

Was it? I didn't say it was the same type and style. That's just your imagination filling in the blanks in a biased manner as per usual.
But it certainly looked similar but I've only seen a photo of the back side and there is no way to make the determination you want to make but can not support!

what are the chances that the Jackets are almost the same colour, same style and appear to be the same size.

Were they? Did you examine both jackets or are you just making this stuff up?

The more you try to create a narrative for your massive conspiracy, the more unwieldly, illogical and frankly ridiculous it becomes.

My massive conspiracy? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Well, as you always claim, sunlight can cause the color to be different because of shade and depending from where you look and how far away you are.

It's one thing for a light coloured garment to look different in various lighting conditions but white has no pigment to alter.

Btw which witnesses said the jacket was light colored grey or beige?

Mr. BALL. How was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. He had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and a lithe sort of light-gray-looking jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he had on?
Mrs.V DAVIS. He had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

Mrs. MARY BROCK, 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, she was at the Ballew Texaco Service Station located in the 600 block of Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas. She advised that at approximately 1:30 PM a white male described as approximately 30 years of age; 5 feet, 10 inches; light—colored complexion, wearing light clothing, came past her walking at a fast pace, wearing a light—colored jacket and with his hands in his pockets.

Mr. BENAVIDES - I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight.
Mr. BELIN - Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember?
Mr. BENAVIDES - It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket.

what are the chances that the Jackets are almost the same colour, same style and appear to be the same size.

Were they? Did you examine both jackets or are you just making this stuff up?

The jackets are extremely similar in size, shape and shade, they could almost be identical, what a coincidence, eh!



Anyway, I did an image search for a vintage 1963 men's jacket and out of nearly 100 results, there is nothing that really comes close to Oswald's jacket, but in your scenario Oswald's jacket was a near identical match for some random jacket that your make believe cop killer was wearing. Like I said the chances were not good but I guess in CT fantasy land anything is possible! Hahahaha!



BTW Frazier said that Oswald was wearing a grey jacket that morning, so much for your grey Jacket left at Irving BS! LOL!

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.



Mr. BALL - I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have.

JohnM

[John Mytton]

OMG WOW!
After going through my collection of images I found a photo of the rear of Oswald's jacket and the similarity to the carpark photo is even more striking, at both ends across the back of Oswald's jacket we see a small elastic section where the fabric is gathered and allowed to stretch so as to provide a snug fit around the mid-section, this design is seen in both photos!!
To confirm the uniqueness of this find, I did a google image search across hundreds of jackets through many decades and couldn't find a single example that showed this unique pair of gathered elastic sections. So I went a bit more specific and searched "windbreaker jacket" and the best I could find was in the bottom photo which doesn't really gather in the same way.
Now I'm sure that eventually I could find one but it's clear that I've proven that Weidmann's scenario of Oswald's jacket matching some random jacket is basically extremely statistically unlikely. But don't trust me, do some research and see what you can find!





JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

It means we shouldn't assume what they have told us is factual if it cannot be corroborated.

Exactly right...

Earlene Roberts' story hasn't got any corroboration.
Wesley Buell Frazier's story is corroborated by his sister

So why do LN blindly accept Roberts' story and reject what Frazier said?

[Martin Weidmann]

You're accusing Mary Brock of telling the FBI that Oswald was the guy who ran past her in a jacket for no other reason than it was known by this time (2 months later) that Oswald was the alleged assassin and cop-killer.  This would be mighty low of Mary Brock.  What evidence do you have to support this?

Please post whatever you have which suggests that Oswald, when running past Scoggins with a gun in his hands, looked exactly like he did in the photo shown to Scoggins.

------------

See what I did here?  Same thing you are doing.  If you can do it, than I can do it.

You're accusing Mary Brock of telling the FBI that Oswald was the guy who ran past her in a jacket for no other reason than it was known by this time (2 months later) that Oswald was the alleged assassin and cop-killer.  This would be mighty low of Mary Brock.  What evidence do you have to support this?

I'm not accusing Mary Brock of anything. I was asking a question that any honest person would answer with; of course it is possible that two months of massive media exposure could have influenced her. When a jury is frequently sequestered to isolated it from outside influence, why would you assume that a witness who only saw a man who walked past at a fast pace once, two months earlier, could not have been influenced by media reports?

Please post whatever you have which suggests that Oswald, when running past Scoggins with a gun in his hands, looked exactly like he did in the photo shown to Scoggins.

What kind of BS is this? When Scoggings identified Oswald in the line up he wasn't holding a gun. And since when can police and FBI only use a photograph of a suspect that showed him exactly the way he looked when the witness saw him?

Like it or not; the fact remains that one day after identifing Oswald in the line up, Scoggings failed to identify Oswald from a photo to the FBI.