The Unraveling of Richard Case Nagell

[Mitch Todd]

I notice the video does not explain how Nagell had the names of several CIA officers in his notebook. Anyone who claims that Nagell was insane (he most certainly was not) and that he was only a low-level counter-intel officer in the Army needs to explain how in the world he could have known the names of not one or two but six CIA officers.

Here is where my decades of intel experience gives me a broader, deeper perspective. I worked with several Army counter-intel guys. For nearly a year, my direct operational boss was an Army counter-intel guy. I got briefed at least 15 times by Army counter-intel officers/officials. I worked at two NSA sites. I worked several joint intel assignments where we had guys from several three-letter intel agencies, including the CIA. Personally, I never knew of any CIA guys who would even use their real names on assignments, and certainly not in operations. Sometimes you would not even know when someone was CIA--they would be placed under the guise of working for a different agency, and you would find out later that they were CIA.

No Army counter-intel officer working under CIC or in any other CIA-connected capacity is going to know the names of six CIA personnel. That is not going to happen. He will work with one CIA contact, maybe two on rare occasions, and he probably won't even know the CIA guy's real name.

I can assure you that it is astonishing that an Army counter-intel guy would have, much less write down, the names of six CIA personnel. That is extremely suspicious and unusual. If you don't believe me, find someone who has had a TS/SCI clearance, with caveats, and who has worked joint intel assignments, and ask them what they would think if an Army counter-intel guy had the real names of six--not two or three, but six--CIA guys, and also wrote them down, even in a private notebook. I guarantee you they will tell you that this would be extremely unusual and would indicate that the Army counter-intel guy was much more than your usual counter-intel officer.

MG: I notice the video does not explain how Nagell had the names of several CIA officers in his notebook.

It's not actually clear if any of the names in Nagell's list are those of CIA personnel. He listed "F. Parker," "Mrs Guthries," "C. Churchill," "J. Sloss," "E. Leibacher," "J. Davanon," as well as "Richard Fecteau."

Richard Fecteau was indeed a CIA agent, who had the bad luck of being captured by the Communist Chinese government in the early '50's during a botched infiltration attempt. Fecteau's captivity was well publicized: China prosecuted him and sentenced him to 20 years for spying. His case was widely known long before Nagell was arrested in 1963.

Of the rest, the CIA was able people to find associated with the agency whose names were similar to those found in Nagell's notebook and who might have been in position to have come across him at some point, but was unable to determine whether or not any of then were actually a match. An initial and last name aren't a lot to go on when you're talking about an agency as large as the CIA. The CIA did not that they did have two employees named Ernst Leibacker and Joseph Francis Davanon working out of the Los Angeles Domestic Contact Service field office in the early 1960's, when Nagell was living in the LA area. The DCS was an inherently public-facing operation, so their names being in his notes would not be particularly eyebrow raising if they are indeed the same people in his notes.

Fecteau was CIA, but everyone knew that by 1963. Of the others, some, all, or none might have actually been associated with the Agency.

As for your own experiences, just because it was that way where you were working when you worked there does not mean that things were handled that way at other operations in the 50's and early 60's.

[Tom Graves]

MG: I notice the video does not explain how Nagell had the names of several CIA officers in his notebook.

It's not actually clear if any of the names in Nagell's list are those of CIA personnel. He listed "F. Parker," "Mrs Guthries," "C. Churchill," "J. Sloss," "E. Leibacher," "J. Davanon," as well as "Richard Fecteau."

Richard Fecteau was indeed a CIA agent, who had the bad luck of being captured by the Communist Chinese government in the early '50's during a botched infiltration attempt. Fecteau's captivity was well publicized: China prosecuted him and sentenced him to 20 years for spying. His case was widely known long before Nagell was arrested in 1963.

Of the rest, the CIA was able people [sic] to find associated with the agency whose names were similar to those found in Nagell's notebook and who might have been in position to have come across him at some point but was unable to determine whether or not any of then were actually a match. An initial and last name aren't a lot to go on when you're talking about an agency as large as the CIA. The CIA did not [sic] that they did have two employees named Ernst Leibacker and Joseph Francis Davanon working out of the Los Angeles Domestic Contact Service field office in the early 1960's, when Nagell was living in the LA area. The DCS was an inherently public-facing operation, so their names being in his notes would not be particularly eyebrow raising, if they are indeed the same people in his notes.

Fecteau was CIA, but everyone knew that by 1963. Of the others, some, all, or none might have actually been associated with the Agency.

As for your own experiences, just because it was that way where you were working when you worked there does not mean that things were handled that way at other operations in the 50's and early 60's.

See my earlier posts on J. Sloss.

Regarding your comment, ". . . if they are indeed the same people in his notes," Ernst Leibacker and Joseph Francis Davanon are unusual names, wouldn't you agree?

What's the probability that they just happened to have the same names of two LA CIA officers, but, in reality, were just too guys Nagell happened to know at his favorite bar or from his bowling league?

[Benjamin Cole]

Nagell himself claimed to be a double agent, and that he was assigned by Moscow to interdict LHO, who had been trained to assassinate JFK.

Unfortunately, Nagell appeared troubled. Also, the provenance of whatever was in his lawyer's office papers is unverified, including the dubious Hidell ID card, which was likely fabricated after 11/22.

That there was interaction between LHO and G2 and KGB all along the line in the second half of 1963 is indisputable. That Castro threatened the Kennedy brothers in September '63 with a revenge assassination attempt is matter of historical record.

The US Ambassador to Mexico, Thomas Mann, and the State Department staffer Charles Thomas, both thought there was a lot to the Cuba-LHO connection, and they were both shut down.

In some circles, the LHO as G2-KGB asset version of the JFKA is heresy. I am open minded.

Nagell? I don't know. When intel agencies say "So-and-so was too unstable to ever be a staffer," that may be true, but manipulating a troubled soul may still be on the table.

[Gerry Down]

Sometimes you would not even know when someone was CIA--they would be placed under the guise of working for a different agency, and you would find out later that they were CIA.

Doesnt this employ that as part of your job (great to have someone of your experience on the forum by the way), you got to know the names of several CIA agents, even though it might be some time after you had worked with an individual that you became aware they were CIA.

I wonder if its possible that Nagell compiled a list of CIA officers, or people he suspected to be CIA, as a result of his intelligence work, and kept a list of them in his notebook in case he needed to make contact with the CIA at any stage and therefore he would have a list of potential CIA people to go to.

It sounds like, as a result of your work, you could easily compile a list of 6 or more CIA officers. And while it might seem odd to you to have written down their names in a notebook, if you were someone like Nagell who suffered from mental problems, you can see how Nagell might have written their names down in a notebook in case he ever wanted to make contact with the CIA.

[Fred Litwin]

The CIA said that Nagell might of known of Parker, Churchill and Guthrie through their work in the far east. Nagell lived in LA as did Leibacker and Davanon - he might have had some contact
with the Domestic Contact Office.

[Michael T. Griffith]

It sounds like, as a result of your work, you could easily compile a list of 6 or more CIA officers.

No way. I might be able to guess the names of one or two CIA officers from among the guys I worked with, but not six. (Obviously, this does not include the one or two guys who I later learned were CIA.)   

If you doubt me, talk to anyone who has worked in joint assignments in the intel field and who had at least a TS clearance. They will tell you it is astonishing that Nagell knew the names of six CIA personnel, not to mention that he wrote them down.

Nagell's notebook contained names of six persons who would much later be identified as CIA personnel. (The names were submitted by the FBI to the CIA in October '63 and were eventually verified by the CIA as being names of actual employees.)

And while it might seem odd to you to have written down their names in a notebook, if you were someone like Nagell who suffered from mental problems, you can see how Nagell might have written their names down in a notebook in case he ever wanted to make contact with the CIA.

Nagell had an excellent memory, as we'll see in a moment. There is a big difference between having neurological issues due to brain trauma (plane crash) and being insane. There is a big difference between excessively suspicious and being crazy. Nagell was quite lucid and intelligent. Nagell also had a drinking problem off and on. So did William Harvey. So did many other intel personnel.

The psychiatric exam reprinted in the CIA OS file notes that Nagell was "of superior intelligence and shows a remarkable memory for dates and names" ("Psychiatrist's Report on Richard Case Nagell," October 29, 1968, p. 3). Nagell admitted that he was prone to be "highly suspicious" of others, which he himself also described as "chronically paranoid," and that he tended to "impute intentions where none may exist." Trust me: Lots of counter-intel guys fit this description to a tee, but they are most certainly not insane. The psych exam concluded that Nagell showed "no overt evidence of psychosis" (p. 4), and that "he is not psychotic and seems competent in a legal and psychiatric sense" (p. 5).

The CIA said that Nagell might of known of Parker, Churchill and Guthrie through their work in the far east.

Oh, come on, Fred! Occam's Razor! No ordinary Army CI guy working in the Far East would have known the names of three CIA officers. He might, might, might have known the name of one officer, if that officer was his POC or operational handler at the time, and that's assuming the CIA officer was using his real name.

Nagell lived in LA as did Leibacker and Davanon - he might have had some contact with the Domestic Contact Office.

Again, come on! More reaching and straining and avoidance of Occam's Razor. Fred, you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't understand how stove-piped and carefully guarded CIA operations were at the time (and largely still are). Contact between Army intel offices and CIA offices was strictly regimented by "need to know" protocols.

The problem is that you are determined, no matter what, to dismiss Nagell as an unimportant nut who had no high-level intel connections.

The CIA OS file documents that Nagell was an Army counter-intel officer. He attended and graduated from the Army Intelligence School at Fort Holabird, Maryland. That school later moved to Fort Huachuca, Arizona, and I myself attended that school and had friends who were instructors there. When you graduate from that school, you become part of the Army's intelligence corps (aka command). The CIA OS file also confirms that Nagell worked in counter-intelligence assignments in Korea and Japan. Military counter-intel guys sometimes work with CIA guys, but only if they are working as part of a CIA-controlled operation. The CIA oversees military counter-intel operations, just as NSA oversees military signals intelligence operations.

And then there is the fact that Nagell had a military ID with Oswald's name and signature on it but with Nagell's photo on it. Where and how did Nagell get this ID card?

You argue that the Nagell-Oswald military ID was not found on Nagell when he was arrested because it is not listed in any of the property reports. However, we know that the police and SS property lists are not complete: The police report doesn't mention a military ID, yet the SS report does. And, neither the police report nor the SS report mentions the notebook, much less that it listed six CIA agents. Yet, someone clearly knew that he possessed the notebook when he was arrested because the CIA OS file acknowledges that he did. Thus, it is not a convincing to argue, as you do, that he did not have the Nagell-Oswald military ID when he was arrested because it's not listed in the police property list and is not expressly listed in the SS property list (although the SS list does include a military ID).

[Gerry Down]

Is it possible that it was easier to know if someone was CIA back in the early 1960s than when you were working in army intel? Alot of people in ww2, such as being in the military and OSS, went on to join the CIA. Therefore, because of their shared history during ww2, people might be able to track one another's career path thereafter and deduce someone was now working for the CIA.

I guess the other possibility is that Nagell was a CIA officer working under military cover. A bit like David Morales. Had Nagell publicly stated that, maybe he would lose his pension. This might explain how he knew so many CIA officers.

[Tommy Shanks]

Unless he's right that the Soviets really did want him to prevent Oswald from following through on his mission.

Tom, normally I'm in board with your positions in this case but I do not agree with you that Nagell had anything whatsoever to do with the assassination. I believe Fred Litwin has presented a very convincing case that Nagell was a pathological liar with brain damage from an earlier plane crash, and that there is nothing of substance to his claims and stories.