What to make of this mysterious Oswald encounter?

[Lance Payette]

I encountered this fascinating factoid while doing some non-JFKA reading. It’s the sort of thing that, if true, would be a conspiratorial bombshell.

The Gerharts

Rev. Elmer G. Gerhart and his wife Marietta were real people. (The G is sometimes shown as Gottshall, but his death certificate says Godshall.) He was an evangelistic minister in Houston for at least 55 years. He died in 1972 at age 90. Marietta Collins was his second wife. He married her in 1945. She died in Houston in 1990 at age 83. At the time of the JFKA they would have been 81 and 56 respectively.

Apart from these facts, the Gerharts are completely obscure. You can find absolutely nothing meaningful. On the surface, they scarcely sound like the tellers of tall JFKA tales.

Charles Frederick Rogers

He likewise was very real. He was the prime suspect in the hideous 1965 murders of his parents, Fred and Edwina Rogers. He disappeared forever right after the murders and was declared legally dead in 1975. The murders are well-known as the “Texas Icebox” murders.

Charles was extremely intelligent but bizarre. He had a degree in nuclear physics and is reported to have spoken seven languages. He was a Navy pilot and in Naval Intelligence in WW2. At the time of the murders, he was 43 and living with his parents. They reportedly didn’t speak at all; his mother would pass notes under his bedroom door. Close neighbors didn’t even know he existed.

Charles spent nine years as an extremely talented seismologist with Shell Oil but quit abruptly without explanation in 1957. It is rumored that he thereafter was a CIA operative, possibly on contract.

The intersection of the Gerharts and Charles Frederick Rogers

In 1992, two private investigators named James R. Craig and Phillip A. Rogers published a “fictionalized account” of the JFKA called The Man on the Grassy Knoll. The basic thrust is that the Three Tramps were Charles Frederick Rogers, Charles Harrleson and Chauncey Holt, with Rogers and Harrelson firing shots. Craig and Phillips seem to be just about as obscure as the Gerharts. I don’t have the book and could find nothing about them.

Oddly for a fictionalized account, the authors feature the Gerharts prominently in the book. Marietta Gerhart would have died only two years before it was published.

The account attributed to the Gerharts is that, on September 25, 1963 two tired men who gave the names Lee and Charles appeared at their church. They said they had traveled from New Orleans and were on their way to Mexico. They were supposed to meet a contact named “Carlos” at a bus stop down the street but he had failed to show.

The Gerharts invited them in and fed them. Lee used the phone and said he had reached Carlos. The Gerharts watched from a window as the men made their rendezvous at the bus stop. They recognized “Carlos” as Charles Frederick Rogers, with whom they were familiar because his mother attended their church.

After the JFKA, they recognized Lee as Oswald. Elmer called the Houston office of the FBI, which showed little interest. He called again a short time later and was told his report had been sent to the Dallas office. Hearing nothing further, he confided in a friend who was a retired CIA guy. The guy told Elmer he had done his civic duty and should back off.

The speculation [?] in The Man on the Grassy Knoll is that Charles Frederick Rogers obtained Oswald’s visa and identification at the bus stop and impersonated him in Mexico City on a mission in which Ferrie and Bannister were connected. (It appears that Charles Frederick Rogers had been with the Civil Air Patrol in the 1950’s and had known Ferrie well. At least this is reported elsewhere as though it were fact.)

So what is this really all about?

The Oswald encounter by the Gerharts as reported in The Man on the Grassy Knoll has received no attention in the conspiracy literature. Literally none. It apparently was and is regarded as complete fiction.

And yet: The Gerharts were very real people. Marietta would have been alive while the authors were doing their research. The Gerhart tale, and much of the discussion of Charles Frederick Rogers, is highly factual-sounding. It gives the strong impression of having some basis in reality.

Would the authors have simply invented the Gerhart tale using the names of a longtime Houston evangelist and his wife? This seems highly unlikely. Even the connection between them and the mysterious Charles Frederick Rogers, the ostensible Texas Icebox murderer (two years after the JFKA), seems an unlikely invention.

Alas, I don’t have the book and used copies are hundreds of dollars. If anyone has it or knows the genesis of the Gerharts’ supposed Oswald encounter, I’d be curious to know what you can add. If the authors claim to have interviewed Marietta, that would certainly be interesting. If nothing in The Man on the Grassy Knoll but the Gerharts’ encounter has a basis in fact, that would still be quite a conspiratorial bombshell.

(BTW, The Man on the Grassy Knoll by James Crawley is a completely different 2010 book. No connection.)

[Tom Graves]

[...]

Well, if it isn't KGB*-minimizing, Donald Trump-loving Fancy Pants Rants!

Welcome back, Fancy-Pants Rants!

-- Tom

*Today's SVR and FSB

[Lance Payette]

Here is the well-researched piece at the Texas True Crime blog that set me off on this tangent: https://txtruecrimeblog.com/blog-archive/ice-box-murders.

The author acknowledges the fictional nature of The Man on the Grassy Knoll but clearly takes it quite seriously. The book is also cited several other places, seemingly with respect, although I found nothing further about the Gerharts' tale.

I was able to view some pages of the book here: https://archive.org/details/manongrassyknoll00crai/mode/2up . It is dedicated to the memory of Edwina Rogers, the mother of Charles Frederick Rogers who was ostensibly butchered (literally butchered) by him.

There is a short 2005 thread at the Ed Forum on "The Gerhart Incident" that really doesn't go anywhere in terms of the authenticity of the Gerharts actually making such a claim. It mentions that Craig, one of the authors of The Man on the Grassy Knoll, was the first to videotape an interview with Chauncey Holt, so he must've been doing some actual research and presumably didn't simply invent the Gerhart incident.

All very weird. The sort of thing I'd spend time on if I were more CT-oriented. If one takes the LN narrative as straight-line truth from A to Z, I must say that there are enough genuinely weird and puzzling tangents at every point from A to Z to give anyone this side of a complete LN fanatic considerable pause. Ferrie's trip to the ice skating rink in Houston, for example - really?

[Tom Graves]

One of the primary reasons I am not "back," and will not be "back," is because you are the single most boring, repetitive, obsessive, one-dimensional participant I believe I have ever encountered on any internet forum of any type.

On my last post before this thread, some 2+ months ago, I concluded by stating "I would note that I have observed the curious phenomenon that both this forum and the Other One seem to be solidly in the grip of tedious characters who have taken lessons in 'How to Kill an Internet Forum.'"

In the forefront of those tedious characters would be: you.

Dear Fancy Pants Rants,

Just remember that Lt. Col. Putin thanks you for supporting his favorite "useful idiot," The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with "Xxxx"), and for minimizing the KGB*.

-- Tom

*Today's SVR and FSB

[Lance Payette]

Well, I quickly skimmed the entire book. It is well-researched and well-written, by no means a schlock effort. The authors shared their work with the Houston Police Deparment. They state that the book is "true," being fictionalized only in the sense that the murders of Fred and Edwina Rogers are technically still unsolved and much dialogue is fact-based speculation. It is clearly intended to be taken seriously.

The Gerharts are not bit players. They are major characters throughout the book. There is an extensive biography of Rev. Gerhart that is entirely accurate as far as I can tell. The authors also explain his long connecfion with the retired CIA guy. The interaction with Oswald is fleshed out at great length and has to be largely speculative.

The authors note the passing of Marietta Gerhart in 1990 but do not acknowledge her as one of their sources. They say that she confided in several close friends with the stipulation that they not speak until after her death.

The bottom line, as it always seems to be, is "Who knows?" The story - meaning specifically the Gerharts' alleged encounter, not the Three Tramps stuff - involves real and seemingly unlikely people and has the ring of truth, but now we'll never know. If true, it would put a huge hole in the LN narrative. (FWIW, Carlos Marcello figures prominently in the book.)

Anyway, I look forward to reading the whole thing.

I'm surprised the book seems to have received so little attention in the ensuing 34 years. Shouldn't the Gerharts' tale alone be kind of a big deal conspiracy-wise even if one rejects much of the rest of the book? And Charles Frederick Rogers absolutely sounds like yet another candidate, along with Oswald and Ferrie, for The Most Interesting Man in the World.

[Tom Graves]

Well, I quickly skimmed the entire book. It is well-researched and well-written, by no means a schlock effort. The authors shared their work with the Houston Police Deparment. They state that the book is "true," being fictionalized only in the sense that the murders of Fred and Edwina Rogers are technically still unsolved and much dialogue is fact-based speculation. It is clearly intended to be taken seriously.

The Gerharts are not bit players. They are major characters throughout the book. There is an extensive biography of Rev. Gerhart that is entirely accurate as far as I can tell. The authors also explain his long connection with the retired CIA guy. The interaction with Oswald is fleshed out at great length and has to be largely speculative.

The authors note the passing of Marietta Gerhart in 1990 but do not acknowledge her as one of their sources. They say that she confided in several close friends with the stipulation that they not speak until after her death.

The bottom line, as it always seems to be, is "Who knows?" The story - meaning specifically the Gerharts' alleged encounter, not the Three Tramps stuff - involves real and seemingly unlikely people and has the ring of truth, but now we'll never know. If true, it would put a huge hole in the LN narrative. (FWIW, Carlos Marcello figures prominently in the book.)

Anyway, I look forward to reading the whole thing.

I'm surprised the book seems to have received so little attention in the ensuing 34 years. Shouldn't the Gerharts' tale alone be kind of a big deal conspiracy-wise even if one rejects much of the rest of the book? And Charles Frederick Rogers absolutely sounds like yet another candidate, along with Oswald and Ferrie, for The Most Interesting Man in the World.

Dear FPR,

The book would have been a lot more popular if Marietta had been abducted and inseminated by aliens (no, not those pet-eating Salvadorians; the UFO kind), don't you think?

-- Tom

[Lance Payette]

Here FWIW is the transcript of a 1991 interview that Craig and Rogers (and apparently Gary Shaw) did with Chauncey Holt in 1991, obviously in connection with The Man on the Grassy Knoll: https://georgemagazine.site/category/jfk-murder-solved/chauncey-holt/. As in the UFO field, separating fact from convincing fantasy can be extremely difficult. Apart from all the Three Tramps stuff and even most of the Charles Frederick Rogers stuff, I continue to find the Gerhart encounter fascinating. It's the sort of thing that, if it had come to light long before 1992, could have been intensively investigated and would have had the potential to cast more doubt on the LN narrative than 99% of the BS discussed today; alas, it will now forever remain a historical curiosity that rings true but may be entirely bogus for reasons we'll never understand (as is true of most bogus UFO stuff as well). Like many, many UFO prevaricators, Elmer and Marietta seem highly unlikely candidates with no obvious agenda for concocting and perpetuating such a tale. It's too bad we don't have the story directly from the horses' mouths, as opposed to what their relatives apparently told Craig and Phillips almost 30 years later and what the authors then did in fictionalizing the incident.

[Lance Payette]

Just thinking out loud now, but what sense does this make:

You’re Elmer and Marietta Gerhart, a respected Christian couple with your very own evangelistic church. Edwina Rogers attends your church and sometimes shares her troubles with Marietta. In 1963, you see her son Charles mysteriously meeting Oswald just before Oswald's trip to Mexico City. After the JFKA, Elmer ostensibly calls the FBI twice. There is, of course, no record of this. Do you say anything to Edwina or Fred or even the Houston Police? Apparently not. Your friend the former CIA guy in Pennsylvania mysteriously tells you to back off. Why – what the hell does he know? You dutifully let the matter drop. Less than two years later, Edwina and Fred are brutally butchered in a ghastly, headline-making murder. Old Elmer officiates at their funerals. Their son Charles is the prime (i.e., only) suspect. Do you say anything to the Houston Police about having seen him with Oswald? Apparently not. Until Elmer dies in 1972 and Marietta dies in 1990, you say nothing about any of this except to “close friends” (who?) whom you swear to secrecy because you fear retribution from Harrelson. Harrelson is admittedly a scary guy, but he first made his JFK-related claims in 1980 and he’s been sitting in prison since 1982 – and if you’re so worried, why do you confide in “close friends” anyway? If you authorize them to talk after your death, why don’t you (Marietta) leave some written, audio or video record?

Nah, it just doesn’t add up. Bummer. I also have a hard time placing Oswald in the company of Rogers and Harrelson for any purpose. FWIW, in 1963 Harrelson (who was just about the same age as Oswald) was married with three sons and scarcely the crazed druggie murderer he would become: “Harrelson attended Huntsville High School, where he served as vice president of the poster club and was involved in a cappella and high school choir before dropping out and joining the U.S. Navy, where he served as a sonar man. Harrelson was married to Diane Lou Oswald [OSWALD?] on February 26, 1958, by Baptist Rev. L. D. Morgan in Pasadena, Texas. The couple had three sons, Jordan Kenneth, Woodrow “Woody” Tracy, and Brett. Harrelson held many odd jobs, including working as a book salesman (where he was presented ‘Salesman of the Year') and repairing dental equipment, but he preferred gambling.” https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/harrelson-charles-voyde.

Oh, well, it was interesting (to me) while it lasted. Now, thanks to Alex Harris, I’m moving on to my current working hypothesis that alien bodies are stashed in the climate-controlled trunk of a faux JFK limo hidden deep in the salt caves of Lenexa, Kansas. I'll get back to you, or maybe not.