Proof Rosemary Willis had started looking towards the TSBD by Z-145

[Charles Collins]

 

Here is Tina Towner's last frame:


This is the position of JFK on Elm St. at that time. The sightline from Tina Towner to JFK goes through the motorcyclist's helmet which is between the east end of the pillar on the pergola and the darker pillar to the right side of the helmet:

In her Sixth Floor Oral History from 1996 she said the first shot occurred 4 or 5 maybe 6 seconds after she stopped filming - see the 1:14:40 point of the video:
 


This is consistent with what she previously said she did between the time she stopped filming and the first shot, although her previous estimates of the time were 1 or 2 seconds or a few seconds.

I think you might be looking at the Towner frame incorrectly Andrew. I have outlined the door to the pergola shelter with yellow lines. This is well past the pillar that I think you are trying to align things to. Watch the Towner film and I think you will see that pillar disappear off the right side of the frames well before the film segments end.

As far as my diagram goes, it depicts the positions at almost a second after the Towner film ends. So back the limo up accordingly and you will see that things align close to what I showed.

[Royell Storing]

Read my post again please. I DID NOT indicate that Croft’s angle was of the point in time when he took his photo. That was over 2-seconds later.

   You're quibbling now. You previously stated that 2 seconds is ONLY about 2 CAR lengths. That image is incorrect with respect to the Croft camera cone. The Tall Stone Monument should be in the Croft Photo per that cone. And the RL Thornton sign WAS extremely close to the Tall Stone Monument. This is why they consistently have moved, removed, and relocated landmarks inside Dealey Plaza. Over time, living eyewitnesses and researchers lose track of what was where, and how these Dealey Plaza landmarks related to each other. We saw this Hocus-Pocus in action when Max Holland moved the JFK Limo location on Elm St. by confusing Tina Towner via missing signage on "The Lost Bullet". I would include Euins too, but I do Not believe he was near the Toni Glover pedestal as he claims.

[Charles Collins]

   You're quibbling now. You previously stated that 2 seconds is ONLY about 2 CAR lengths. That image is incorrect with respect to the Croft camera cone. The Tall Stone Monument should be in the Croft Photo per that cone. And the RL Thornton sign WAS extremely close to the Tall Stone Monument. This is why they consistently have moved, removed, and relocated landmarks inside Dealey Plaza. Over time, living eyewitnesses and researchers lose track of what was where, and how these Dealey Plaza landmarks related to each other. We saw this Hocus-Pocus in action when Max Holland moved the JFK Limo location on Elm St. by confusing Tina Towner via missing signage on "The Lost Bullet". I would include Euins too, but I do Not believe he was near the Toni Glover pedestal as he claims.

Here’s the Croft photo:



It appears to me that the bend in the wall in the background is aligned pretty much with Jackie and JFK. And that it is also in the middle area of the photo.

Now, here is the same diagram I submitted before, that you thought was wrong, with some additions for the Croft photo position. I already said that the diagram depicts the limo position close to, but less than, a second after the end of the Towner film segment. That makes the limo position in the diagram already placed close to but slightly less that a car length past the point that it was when the Towner film segment ends. Therefore if we add one more car length we should be getting reasonably close to two car lengths past the position it was when the Towner film segment ends; which I already indicated equals roughly 2-seconds.



The black lines I added indicate the position of the limo, as I described above, and the angle of the Croft photo taken at the proper point in time. Notice that the bend in the wall is aligned with the position where Jackie and JFK would be seated in the limo. These diagrams are only rough estimates. You can quibble if you wish; but please keep in mind that these are only rough estimates.

[Royell Storing]

   I do Not see the "bend in the wall" on the photo you posted.
   You do know there are 2 walls there? (1) the long wall the people are seated on in the photo you posted, and (2) a short wall running between the Tall Stone Monument and the thick tree on the (R) in the photo you posted. This is why the Croft Cone is incorrect. Based on that cone, we should be seeing that Tall Stone Monument in the Croft photo. You walk down to the very end of that sidewalk that runs behind the wall the people are seated on, and you can reach out and touch that Stone Monument. We frequently hear about how "small" Dealey Plaza actually is. The Tall Stone Monument, the Wall people are seated on, and the RL Thornton Sign were close together. Of course, the RL Thorton sign was removed extremely early on. Over time, this destroys those Land Marks very short distance from one to the other. Either the Croft Cone is inaccurate, or the Croft photo has had the Tall Stone Monument removed/cropped from it. And Croft did have issues with the FBI concerning his film.   

[Andrew Mason]

I think you might be looking at the Towner frame incorrectly Andrew. I have outlined the door to the pergola shelter with yellow lines. This is well past the pillar that I think you are trying to align things to. Watch the Towner film and I think you will see that pillar disappear off the right side of the frames well before the film segments end.

As far as my diagram goes, it depicts the positions at almost a second after the Towner film ends. So back the limo up accordingly and you will see that things align close to what I showed.

Yes. You are right.  Trask's diagram does not have correct placement of the lane markers on Elm St.  This should be more accurate:

[Charles Collins]

   I do Not see the "bend in the wall" on the photo you posted.
   You do know there are 2 walls there? (1) the long wall the people are seated on in the photo you posted, and (2) a short wall running between the Tall Stone Monument and the thick tree on the (R) in the photo you posted. This is why the Croft Cone is incorrect. Based on that cone, we should be seeing that Tall Stone Monument in the Croft photo. You walk down to the very end of that sidewalk that runs behind the wall the people are seated on, and you can reach out and touch that Stone Monument. We frequently hear about how "small" Dealey Plaza actually is. The Tall Stone Monument, the Wall people are seated on, and the RL Thornton Sign were close together. Of course, the RL Thorton sign was removed extremely early on. Over time, this destroys those Land Marks very short distance from one to the other. Either the Croft Cone is inaccurate, or the Croft photo has had the Tall Stone Monument removed/cropped from it. And Croft did have issues with the FBI concerning his film.

Here’s a diagram that shows the overhead view. The bend in the wall is circled by me in yellow. As you can see there are two bends in the wall with the very short very end section pointing directly away from Croft’s camera such that it isn’t seen.





In the Croft photo, we see the three people seated on the first bent section. I have drawn a vertical yellow line where I think that bent section begins (but I could be wrong because it isn’t very obvious). I think the fourth person is probably standing on the sidewalk. I believe the tall column is to the right, just out of the frame of that photo.

[Jarrett Smith]

Per Tina Towner in her book:

I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.

If I remember correctly, her film stops about one second before Z133.

That would put the 1st shot in the Z-150's

[Charles Collins]

That would put the 1st shot in the Z-150's

Or maybe the Z130s or Z140s depending on which part of her range you choose to believe. Frankly I think what she wrote in her book was probably more her genuine memory than was what she said later after being influenced by what other people thought. It is difficult to know how well she was able to judge the amount of time that elapsed after she stopped filming before the first shot sounded. So, I wouldn’t use her time estimate exclusively to try to determine the timing. But I do believe that she was able to say with confidence that the first shot sounded shortly after she stopped filming. Our memories are usually based on associations with something else that happened near that particular point in time. So associating the first shot and her end to filming that segment with each other is a good method for keeping her memory intact. And she has been totally consistent with that association.