How Did Bart Kamp Create The Lovelady Image?

[Tom Graves]

How often have You been in bumper-to-bumper traffic, and jumped out of your car after sitting for Under :20 seconds? Does Not happen.

Boy oh boy oh boy, those CIA/FBI/DPD film alterationists must have been very busy, huh?

[Royell Storing]

Boy oh boy oh boy, those CIA/FBI/DPD film alterationists must have been very busy, huh?

   I asked you how often when sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic have you jumped out of your car after only :15 seconds? Applying a False Timeline to a JFK Assassination Image has absolutely nothing to do with "film alteration".
   The Sixth Floor releasing their opening segment of the Darnell Film screwed the pooch. They Failed to recognize the importance of this Camera Car Driver standing outside of his car BEFORE Officer Baker runs across the Island at the currently accepted :20 seconds after the kill shot. The current Officer Baker :20 second timeline don't fly and this also impacts the timeline of the Officer Baker/Oswald 2nd Floor Lunchroom encounter. 

[Dan O'meara]

Just for the sake of argument, let's say I have vastly more intelligence than you and see where that goes  ...

Hmmm...this superior intelligence you often like to boast about...I've never seen it or anything even remotely like it.
In nearly every interaction we have I make an obvious point and you fall to pieces, often running away.
Sometimes even quitting the forum.
I see you've started with the 'aliens' thing already. I imagine you think this is really clever or something...

Sure, I can agree to anything in the context of a thought experiment. If Shelley and Lovelady were on the TSBD steps when the shooting occurred and at the freight elevators seconds later, logic would dictate that they were teleported by aliens - no, strike that, that they walked back there through the front entrance.

The value of a thought experiment hinges to a large extent on its plausibility. Otherwise, of what use is it? This was the problem with your LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley-Dougherty thought experiment. When you acknowledged that it couldn't account for Oswald, I think most folks sensed the thought air going out of your thought balloon. Poof.

I will admit I haven't read The Girl On the Stairs. However, is it correct that Vicki herself in that book disavows saying she saw Shelley and Lovelady and claiming that the relevant portion of her WC testimony doesn't even sound like her, as Roger Odisio states in this thread at the Ed Forum? https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/30023-vickie-adams-interview/. If that weren't sufficient, the thread opens by linking to a 1966 interview in which Vicki apparently claimed that she did see Shelley! Is Vicki's credibility hanging by a thread, or is that my imagination?

The plausibiity of your thought experiment also hinges on (1) Styles, who was there, either being flat wrong or lying for no apparent reason, and (2) the photo that clearly shows Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm Street extension not being Shelley and Lovelady, with fellow gung-ho CTer Bart Kamp having faked said photo for no apparent reason. All of this to prop up some elaborate conspiracy scenario that apparently requires two TSBD clucks like Shelley and Lovelady as well as the WC staff to be at least after-the-fact participants.

Pretty thin thought experiment gruel, it seems to me. Occam and I continue to prefer our version whereby Vicki actually does see Shelley and Lovelady a wee bit later than she recalled, which has the beauty of still allowing CTers to argue that the two cuties were teleported from the fourth floor by aliens and should have heard or encountered Oswald if he'd been coming down the stairs.

Is Vicki's credibility hanging by a thread, or is that my imagination?

There's so many ways to make a fool of you but I can't let the audacity of you, of all people, bringing up 'credibility'.
Let's have a quick look at the credibility of Lovelady regarding his movements after the shooting:
In his affidavit, taken hours after the shooting, he doesn't leave the steps and re-enters the building with Shelley. Is that the truth?
In his FBI statements, he states that he and Shelley ran to where the limo had sped off and hung around there for 5 minutes. Is that the truth?
In his FBI statement, Shelley stated he and Lovelady escorted police officers along the extension and stayed in the railroad yards for 10 minutes. True?
In his WC testimony, Lovelady waited on the steps for at least 3 minutes before heading along the extension. Is that true?
In his HSCA interview he stated that he didn't re-enter the building for 15 - 20 minutes. Is that the truth?
How 'credible' is convicted gun-runner Lovelady? Which of his lies do you choose to opt for?
Incredibly, the answer to that question is that you don't accept any of his lies.
Instead, you made up your own lie in order to account for how Lovelady could have an interaction with Gloria and be seen walking along the extension seconds after the shooting.
The lie you made up was that, immediately after the shooting, Lovelady ran across to the little, old island where he met Gloria before heading along the extension.
How intelligent is that?
Literally make up a scenario that isn't covered in any of the pack of lies Lovelady told about his movements after the shooting. Maybe it's your own credibility that should be examined.

[Dan O'meara]

Shelley on the first floor:

"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."

What evidence exists supporting her constant insistence that she left the window she was looking out of within seconds of the shots?
Below is a plan of the fourth floor of the TSBD building. Adams worked in the office of Scott Foresman Co., where she watched the motorcade pass with Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner and Elsie Dorman. The red box indicates the 5 double sets of windows for that office. The red "A" indicates Adams' location as the Presidential limo passed by. Her colleagues crowded around that double set of windows with Elsie Dorman filming the approaching limo.



Below is a photo taken by Tom Dillard. The red box indicates the same windows. Adams was stood at the open window marked with a red "A".



When we take a closer look at the window we notice that there is no-one stood where there should be four women watching the motorcade. We can see the figure of one woman standing in the window to the left of that. It appears Vicki had left her position by the window by the time this pic was taken.




The question is - how long after the assassination was this photo taken?
This is what Dillard has to say about the picture (quotes taken from Pat Speer's website):

"Bob Jackson, a photographer in my car, said, There's the rifle in that open window. In the three or four seconds it took me to locate the particular open window and make a picture, the rifle had been withdrawn."
"Bob Jackson said, “There’s a guy with a rifle up in that window.” I said, “Where?” I had both cameras around my neck, loaded, focused, cocked…Bob says, “In that window up on that building right there, it’s that top window.” I shot a picture with the wide-angle camera. I said, “Which window?” He said, “It’s the one on the right, second from the top.” By that time, I had the 100mm camera up, shot a picture of that window…."


Clearly this is literally a few seconds after the shooting has occurred as he just missed the rifle being drawn back into the window. On Mark Tyler's Motorcade Mapping website the Dillard pic is taken 11 seconds after the headshot. The limo has barely got out of the Triple Underpass

The Dillard picture is incredibly strong evidence that Adams took off running about 10 seconds after the last shot. This decision was made before the limo even reached the Underpass.

"As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that [the triple underpass] I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."

How long would it take a young women running full tilt in high heels to get down 3 flights of stairs - 30 seconds? 40 seconds?
Let's say her estimate of reaching the first floor one minute after the shooting is conservative, the question remains, what were Lovelady and Shelley doing there?
It must be noted, this mention of Lovelady and Shelley did not first come about during Adams' WC testimony:

 "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs. I ran out the back door of the depository..."
(2-17-64 statement to the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 3 of the Dallas JFK Archive)[Speer]

What is the importance of Shelley and Lovelady lying about their movements after the assassination?
What compelled them to race towards the back of the first floor?

[Lance Payette]

Hmmm...this superior intelligence you often like to boast about...I've never seen it or anything even remotely like it.
In nearly every interaction we have I make an obvious point and you fall to pieces, often running away.
Sometimes even quitting the forum.
I see you've started with the 'aliens' thing already. I imagine you think this is really clever or something...

Oh, dear, Dan is imbibing his 100-proof angry juice again.

YOU began the post to which I was responding by saying "Just for argument's sake though... Let's say you do have some intelligence and can manage this rudimentary thought experiment ..."

I was good-naturedly tweaking you, as opposed to haughtily pointing out that I have a measured IQ in the 99.7th percentile, scored above the 99th percentile of the Law School Admissions Test, graduated magna cum laude from both college and law school, and, well, whatnot.

There ain't nobody EVER, bub, who has thought they were dealing with a dummy when dealing with me. My posts on this forum speak for themselves. If you want to keep playing this goofy game, be my guest - you're just making yourself look silly, and surely you have sufficient intelligence to understand that. What you think you're accomplishing is beyond me. Do you perhaps actually hate yourself?

Is Vicki's credibility hanging by a thread, or is that my imagination?

There's so many ways to make a fool of you but I can't let the audacity of you, of all people, bringing up 'credibility'.

That sentence makes no sense. Diagram it and you'll see. Perhaps something like "There are many different ways to make a fool of you, but the sheer audacity of a hopeless cluck like you, of all people, bringing up 'credibility' presents me with an opportunity that simply cannot be resisted." Not great and kind of wordy, but at least it's grammatical.

The rest of your response, including my supposed "lies," has nothing to do with the points I raised about Vicki's credibility or lack thereof, or with the vastly more plausible thought experiment that Occam and I tend to favor.

I believe if you'll check with the local Safeway you'll find that angry juice is available in a 40-proof variety rather than the 100-proof stuff you seem to be imbibing. Just a suggestion.