Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.

[Dan O'meara]

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

Okay.

And this proves what?

That Shelley and Lovelady were inside the TSBD from the time that the former, having just spoken with Gloria Calvery on or near the "island," went inside to call his wife, and Lovelady tagged along with him and stayed inside until he just couldn't stand it anymore and had to sneak outside to get a nicotine "fix" on the steps?

-- Comrade Pinko Jerkov

And this proves what?

All it proves is that you don't really understand what's going on, Pinko.
You're like so many JFKA researchers, running around the hills chasing the CIA, the KGB, the mafia etc., but you don't really know what's happening on the ground. You're unaware of the importance of some basic facts because you've already raced ahead to your conclusion. It's why you have to fabricate certain scenarios.

That Shelley and Lovelady were inside the TSBD from the time that the former, having just spoken with Gloria Calvery on or near the "island," went inside to call his wife, and Lovelady tagged along with him and stayed inside until he just couldn't stand it anymore and had to sneak outside to get a nicotine "fix" on the steps?


Shelley and Lovelady were making their way towards the back of the first floor within 60 seconds of the shooting and were seen there by Vicki Adams as she and Sandra Styles raced towards the loading dock door. They were also seen there, seconds later, by Baker when he arrived at the area near the elevators.
After a few false starts, Shelley and Lovelady finally settle on the lie that, after the shooting, they waited for 3 minutes on the steps, moved across to the "little, old island", made there way along the Elm Street Ext., hung around the railroad yards and re-entered the building through the west door. The only reason to tell these lies is to cover up their real movements. The only reason to cover up their real movements is because they are trying to hide whatever they were really up to.
The question is - what were they up to?
What were they covering up?
What is there, towards the back of the first floor, that could be so important?
And how did they get away with telling these ridiculously obvious lies to the Warren Commission Sham?

[Tom Graves]

And this proves what?

That Shelley and Lovelady were inside the TSBD from the time that the former, having just spoken with Gloria Calvery on or near the "island," went inside to call his wife, and Lovelady tagged along with him and stayed inside until he just couldn't stand it anymore and had to sneak outside to get a nicotine "fix" on the steps?


Shelley and Lovelady were making their way towards the back of the first floor within 60 seconds of the shooting and were seen there by Vicki Adams as she and Sandra Styles raced towards the loading dock door. They were also seen there, seconds later, by Baker when he arrived at the area near the elevators.

After a few false starts, Shelley and Lovelady finally settle on the lie that, after the shooting, they waited for 3 minutes on the steps, moved across to the "little, old island", made there [sic] way along the Elm Street Ext., hung around the railroad yards and re-entered the building through the west door. The only reason to tell these lies is to cover up their real movements. The only reason to cover up their real movements is because they are trying to hide whatever they were really up to.

The question is - what were they up to?

What were they covering up?

What is there, towards the back of the first floor, that could be so important?

And how did they get away with telling these ridiculously obvious lies to the Warren Commission Sham?

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

Does your scenario somehow preclude Baker's, Truly's and Oswald's being in the 2nd-floor lunchroom "vestibule" while Adams and Styles were quickly traversing a corner of the second floor from one stairwell to another?

Spell it out for me.

-- Tom

[Dan O'meara]

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

Does your scenario somehow preclude Baker's, Truly's and Oswald's being in the 2nd-floor lunchroom "vestibule" while Adams and Styles were quickly traversing a corner of the second floor from one stairwell to another?

Spell it out for me.

-- Comrade Pinko Jerkov

I'm not sure if it does preclude it, Pinko.
This is the way I look at it -
Adams is consistent that she set off within seconds of the shooting. She specifically states that she had decided to race downstairs before the limo had even reached the underpass.
This would have her in motion within 10 seconds of the shooting.
For me, this is confirmed by the Dillard photo which shows the fourth floor open window which Adams, Styles and Dorman were positioned in front of during the motorcade. The Dillard pic is taken around 10 - 15 seconds after the shooting and shows an empty window, which is what we would expect if Adams and Styles had already taken off.
So, I reckon they were at the head of the stairs on the fourth floor no later than 20 seconds after the shooting and they ran all the way to the first floor.

Now let's think about the shooter.
Let's imagine it is Oswald and that he makes his way downstairs after the shooting (not that there is a shred of evidence that this actually happened).
According to Brennan, in "Eyewitness To History", the shooter was still at the SN window after the limo had reached the underpass. This delay receives support from Hank Norman, a few feet below the shooter, who heard the shells hitting the floor but didn't hear the sound of heavy Oxford work shoes on the wooden floor just above his head. Because the shooter was just stood there, not moving.
In this scenario, it would be impossible for Oswald to reach the second floor lunchroom before Adams and Styles passed by.
Even if the shooter left his position the instant he finished shooting, and was running, he still wouldn't have made it to the second floor before Adams.

Also, Dorothy Garner's statements make it clear Adams descended the back stairs a couple of minutes BEFORE Baker and Truly came up the same stairs. This means Oswald would have to make it down the stairs BEFORE Adams reached them and I just can't see a scenario where that happens without ignoring lots of witness evidence and physical evidence such as the Dillard pic.

That said, I've no doubt some really unlikely yet not impossible scenario can be created to make it so Truly and Baker didn't hear the two women clattering along a wooden floor in 3 inch high heels a few feet away.
If anyone can do it, you can Comrade.

[Royell Storing]

  ALL of this speculation is set in motion with the assumption that the 2 Guys that Officer Baker saw near the elevator were Lovelady & Shelley. To this day, we do KNOW who these 2 people were. And think about the timelines. Officer Baker is supposed to be inside the TSBD in 30 seconds. How long do you believe it took Calvery to get back to the TSBD, talk with Shelley, and then for Shelley and Lovelady to enter the front door of the TSBD? This had to take at least 30 seconds. If Shelley and Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, and then traveled back to the freight elevators, they would be traveling the same diagonal route across the TSBD 1st Floor that Baker & Truly used. Yet, Shelley and Lovelady are allegedly already in place, laying around the freight elevators, when Officer Baker and Roy Truly reached these same freight elevators. How can this be? In order for ALL of this to happen, that 30 second timeline of Baker/Truly entering the TSBD has to be extended. Otherwise, these 4 people would have their own Conga Line going as they ALL diagonally crossed the TSBD 1st floor.

[Dan O'meara]

  ALL of this speculation is set in motion with the assumption that the 2 Guys that Officer Baker saw near the elevator were Lovelady & Shelley. To this day, we do KNOW who these 2 people were. And think about the timelines. Officer Baker is supposed to be inside the TSBD in 30 seconds. How long do you believe it took Calvery to get back to the TSBD, talk with Shelley, and then for Shelley and Lovelady to enter the front door of the TSBD? This had to take at least 30 seconds. If Shelley and Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, and then traveled back to the freight elevators, they would be traveling the same diagonal route across the TSBD 1st Floor that Baker & Truly used. Yet, Shelley and Lovelady are allegedly already in place, laying around the freight elevators, when Officer Baker and Roy Truly reached these same freight elevators. How can this be? In order for ALL of this to happen, that 30 second timeline of Baker/Truly entering the TSBD has to be extended. Otherwise, these 4 people would have their own Conga Line going as they ALL diagonally crossed the TSBD 1st floor.

ALL of this speculation is set in motion with the assumption that the 2 Guys that Officer Baker saw near the elevator were Lovelady & Shelley.

No, it's not.
This reflects your inability to appreciate the full extent of the evidence presented.
You are correct that the Shelley/Lovelady identification of the two white men Baker sees near the elevators is an assumption based on the positive identification made by Vicki Adams.
Adams sees Lovelady and Shelley in the area near the elevators seconds before Baker arrives on the scene. It is, therefore, a safe assumption that these two white men are Shelley and Lovelady.
I hope that's cleared up your fundamental misunderstanding of the argument I'm presenting.

How long do you believe it took Calvery to get back to the TSBD, talk with Shelley, and then for Shelley and Lovelady to enter the front door of the TSBD? This had to take at least 30 seconds

I think that's a fair assessment.
Let's have Shelley and Lovelady entering the front door of the TSBD around 30 seconds after the shooting.
Let's add another 20 seconds for them to make their way directly towards the back of the first floor.
Does that seem fair enough?

If Shelley and Lovelady entered the TSBD through the front door, and then traveled back to the freight elevators, they would be traveling the same diagonal route across the TSBD 1st Floor that Baker & Truly used. Yet, Shelley and Lovelady are allegedly already in place, laying around the freight elevators, when Officer Baker and Roy Truly reached these same freight elevators. How can this be? In order for ALL of this to happen, that 30 second timeline of Baker/Truly entering the TSBD has to be extended. Otherwise, these 4 people would have their own Conga Line going as they ALL diagonally crossed the TSBD 1st floor.

How can this be?
How can Shelley and Lovelady already be at the elevators by the time Baker and Truly arrive in the same area?
When Baker made his way into the lobby he was followed by Shelley, Lovelady and Truly. Baker makes the point that people were entering as he entered. 
As Truly and Baker had their interaction, Shelley and Lovelady made their way directly towards the elevators.
Truly and Baker followed a few seconds later.
It's really not difficult to understand and it doesn't require any Magical Thinking.

Here's a more detailed breakdown if it helps:

Last shot
0 - 10 seconds
Gloria is racing towards the TSBD building. Shelley runs across to the 'island'. Lovelady stays put. Baker is on his bike heading for the TSBD building. Adams is in motion
10 - 20 seconds
Gloria meets Shelley at the island and makes her way to the front steps followed by Shelley. Baker pulls up and dismounts. Lovelady stays put as Gloria runs towards him. Adams reaches the top of the stairs.
20 - 30 seconds
Baker races past Truly and makes his way up the front steps. As he enters the lobby he is followed by Shelley, Lovelady and Truly. Adams racing down stairs.
30 - 40 seconds
Baker and Truly have their interaction in the lobby. Shelley and Lovelady make their way directly through the lobby and start to cross the first floor. Adams is still on the stairs.
40 - 50 seconds
Shelley and Lovelady are near the elevators. Adams races past them and calls out about the President before leaving through the back door. Truly and Baker have just entered the first floor from the lobby.
50 - 60 seconds
Baker and Truly arrive at the elevators. Shelley and Lovelady have split up and are trying to act as if nothing is happening. Adams and Styles are outside, racing towards the railroad tracks.

[Royell Storing]

  You have Baker/Truly following Lovelady/Shelley, "a few seconds later"? So how does Baker/Truly NOT see Lovelady/Shelley directly in front of them as all of these people are simultaneously moving diagonally across the LARGE TSBD 1st floor? Also, why would Lovelady/Shelley want to go to the freight elevators and then just lay around there? That area of the 1st floor is an absolute cesspool. My opinion is that Adams/Styles got their timeline screwed up. They probably see Shelley/Lovelady knocking around the TSBD from time-to-time and just got confused as to exactly when they saw them. It's a leap putting Shelley/Lovelady laying around the freight elevator within a minute after the Kill Shot. They literally have no reason to be there at that point in time. None. 

[Dan O'meara]

  You have Baker/Truly following Lovelady/Shelley, "a few seconds later"? So how does Baker/Truly NOT see Lovelady/Shelley directly in front of them as all of these people are simultaneously moving diagonally across the LARGE TSBD 1st floor? Also, why would Lovelady/Shelley want to go to the freight elevators and then just lay around there? That area of the 1st floor is an absolute cesspool. My opinion is that Adams/Styles got their timeline screwed up. They probably see Shelley/Lovelady knocking around the TSBD from time-to-time and just got confused as to exactly when they saw them. It's a leap putting Shelley/Lovelady laying around the freight elevator within a minute after the Kill Shot. They literally have no reason to be there at that point in time. None.

Your only counter-argument is that Baker should have seen Shelley and Lovelady ahead of him??
You seem to imagine that the first floor is a wide open, empty space.
It's nothing of the sort.
You also seem to imagine that everyone travelled in the same straight, diagonal line that led directly from the entrance of the first floor to the elevators. (What makes you think they travelled in a diagonal line anyway?)
I can't help it if you have no idea how cluttered this space was.
At least you've grasped the concept that Shelley and Lovelady could just move into this space while Baker and Truly were interacting in the lobby.
As I said, it's not a difficult concept to grasp.
Your counter-argument is really weak which is very telling.
You are having a problem visualising what is happening because you imagine the first floor to be empty. Once you grasp how cluttered it was it might become clear why Baker didn't see Shelley and Lovelady near the back of the first floor.



So, that's your main counter-argument dealt with.
What else do you have?

Also, why would Lovelady/Shelley want to go to the freight elevators and then just lay around there?


Lay around there?
What are you talking about?
What are you imagining?
That the first floor is this wide open, empty space with a few hammocks in it?
It's hard to discuss these issues with someone who can't grasp the basic realities of the situation.
What makes it even harder is that you never pay attention to what anyone else is posting.
Look back a few Replies and you'll see I posted this:

The question is - what were they up to?

What were they covering up?

What is there, towards the back of the first floor, that could be so important?

It has been demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements.
The lied to cover up their real movements.
They lied to cover up the fact that they immediately made their way towards the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams and Baker.
That they lied is not up for debate.

My opinion is that Adams/Styles got their timeline screwed up.

The reason your opinion is wrong is because it is based solely on the lies of Shelley and Lovelady.

They literally have no reason to be there at that point in time. None.

You literally have no idea if that is true.
Just because you can't imagine what they are up to doesn't mean anything.
They were witnessed in that area approximately 50 - 60 seconds after the shooting. Just because it's not clear what they were doing there doesn't mean they weren't witnessed there. That would be a crazy way to look at things.

[Royell Storing]

  This is the story YOU are putting out there. Yet, you provide no reason why Shelley/Lovelady would enter the TSBD via the front door and then walk all the way across the 1st floor to simply hang around that trash piled into the corner of the floor. Their timeline is also an issue. Serious issue. You gotta tick-tock problem getting them all the way back there to possibly be seen by Baker. To me, it just does not work. In order to make this work, you can't have Officer Baker already inside the TSBD only 30 seconds after the Kill Shot.