Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.

[Lance Payette]

Having now spent some more time on the Prayer Man site simply because it becomes almost addictive even for those of us trapped in the prison of rational thought, I will simply say:

1. There is no way the guy labeled in red as “Shelley” is Shelley. Simply no way.

2. I have considerable doubt that the woman identified as Gloria Calvery is in fact Calvery. If she is, something is far off on the supposed timing.

3. Joe Molina testified at the WC that he was on the TSBD steps, saw Truly go in, and went in after Truly. No one came up the steps and said JFK had been shot before he went in. After he was in the lobby, Calvery and another woman came in and said this.

4. Buell Frazier told the WC he stayed on the steps “a few minutes” after Shelley and Lovelady had left, until people started going back in to eat their lunches. The only thing he heard, “right before” he went back in, was “somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.” The girl who said this – who was unknown to him – “didn’t tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.”

5. I’ll leave it there. I still have no idea what this thread is about. There is no way to make this all neat and tidy. Ordinary people were instantly thrust into unimaginable chaos and confusion. CTers always pretend to nail things down to a level of certainty that is impossible and then to assign nefarious motives and purposes to all the dark and sinister “discrepancies” that are actually understandable and to be expected in such circumstances.

[Dan O'meara]

Having now spent some more time on the Prayer Man site simply because it becomes almost addictive even for those of us trapped in the prison of rational thought, I will simply say:

1. There is no way the guy labeled in red as “Shelley” is Shelley. Simply no way.

2. I have considerable doubt that the woman identified as Gloria Calvery is in fact Calvery. If she is, something is far off on the supposed timing.

3. Joe Molina testified at the WC that he was on the TSBD steps, saw Truly go in, and went in after Truly. No one came up the steps and said JFK had been shot before he went in. After he was in the lobby, Calvery and another woman came in and said this.

4. Buell Frazier told the WC he stayed on the steps “a few minutes” after Shelley and Lovelady had left, until people started going back in to eat their lunches. The only thing he heard, “right before” he went back in, was “somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.” The girl who said this – who was unknown to him – “didn’t tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.”

5. I’ll leave it there. I still have no idea what this thread is about. There is no way to make this all neat and tidy. Ordinary people were instantly thrust into unimaginable chaos and confusion. CTers always pretend to nail things down to a level of certainty that is impossible and then to assign nefarious motives and purposes to all the dark and sinister “discrepancies” that are actually understandable and to be expected in such circumstances.

 
The old-timer has spoken!
No evidence required.
No arguments required.
Just the word of a deluded old fool who thinks his opinion is fact.

[Lance Payette]

Since Tom is apparently asleep at the wheel on this, I am compelled to point out that "it's" in the thread title is egregiously incorrect. I used to make this mistake all the time, too ... in fourth grade, 

[Royell Storing]

Having now re-reviewed the testimony, I am pretty impressed with my months-old recollection. I understood where Shelley and Lovelady reentered the TSBD – on the west side – but was conflating Adams’ testimony that she encountered them on her way out to the Houston Street dock. Set forth below are the relevant portions of their testimonies, together with a diagram of the first floor from John Armstrong’s site.

This is a really, really excellent piece called “Inside the Book Depository.” Chapter IX, “The Stairway,” begins at 46:00 and goes completely through the Shelley-Lovelady-Adams-Styles-Garner mystery in very clear detail: https://www.lemmi.no/p/the-kennedy-assassination-inside-the-book-depository.

I had forgotten that Adams herself suggested that her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony. How does that factor into the mysterious “ramifications,” those of us trapped in the prison of rational thought are inclined to wonder?

Anyway, thus endeth my interest in this topic – whatever this topic actually is. Even though I still run half-marathons, my aged heart simply cannot take this level of excitement.



Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the
dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there
in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking
lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL. At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BILL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr.
Truly, and Mr. Shel1ey park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL. And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did.
…

Mr. BALL. Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you
go in the ordinary small door?
Mr. LOVELADY. You know where we park our trucks-that door; we have
a little door.
Mr. BALL. That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY. That’s right.
Mr. BALL. That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. That would be the west end, wouldn’t it?
Mr. BALL. Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY. No ; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL. I am?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side
of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it
from the south side.
Mr. BALL. Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY. Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL. That’s south.
Mr. LOVELADY. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this
direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL. You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL. Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY. Through that double door that we in the morning when we
get there we raised. There’s a fire door and they have two wooden doors
between it.
Mr. BALL. You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY. Right.


Miss ADAMS: And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back
of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill
Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN. When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you
mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS. While I was on the way out.
…

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock
that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don’t know
how you would describe that.
Mr. BEI.IN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas
School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS. That’s correct.
Mr. BELIN. It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and
probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

   The above diagram is a total misrepresentation of the TSBD. To look at that floor plan, you would believe that the TSBD was a Stand-Alone structure. FALSE! In reality, on 11/22/63 to the viewers (L) were: (1) the Huge Gates, (2) A Grocery Warehouse, and (3) A Large Dock facing the railroad yard. And all of these structures were connected. Anyone could walk through one structure into the other. That diagram above was an Intentional Misrepresentation! A Sham!

[Lance Payette]

   The above diagram is a total misrepresentation of the TSBD. To look at that floor plan, you would believe that the TSBD was a Stand-Alone structure. FALSE! In reality, on 11/22/63 to the viewers (L) were: (1) the Huge Gates, (2) A Grocery Warehouse, and (3) A Large Dock facing the railroad yard. And all of these structures were connected. Anyone could walk through one structure into the other. That diagram above was an Intentional Misrepresentation! A Sham!

Careful there, I believe Dan has copyrighted the term "sham" in reference to the JFKA. Having started out as an architecture major, I can tell you that architectural floor plan drawings simply do not depict surrounding structures.

Is the theory that Oswald actually exited through the Huge Gates, quickly grabbed a cucumber at the Grocery Warehouse, reentered the TSBD via the Houston Street dock, and was in fact observed by Baker, Truly and Mrs. Reid to be holding a cucumber, not a Coke, some 30 minutes after the JFKA? I like it, and I'm pretty sure Dan does, but it's gonna be a tough sell. (Note the correct use of "it's.") 

Ba-da-boom, ba-da-bing, you've been a great audience. I open on the October 10th at Shecky's House of Giggles in Paramus, NJ. Lotsa new JFKA gags.

[Tom Graves]

There is no way the guy labeled in red as “Shelley” is Shelley. Simply no way.

Correct.

I have considerable doubt that the woman identified as Gloria Calvery is in fact Calvery.

Given the fact that:

1) self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her two TSBD workmates, strawberry-blond Gloria Jeanne Holt and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons ("all of whom(?)" mistakenly told the FBI that they were standing on the south side of Elm Street during the motorcade) were misidentified as "Gloria Calvery," "Karan Hicks," and "Carol Reed" "by" the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Zapruder film for several years

2) four headscarf-wearing gals can be seen standing shoulder-to-shoulder on the north side of Elm Street about 10 feet up Elm Street from the Jacob-Holt-Simmons group, and about 100 feet from the TSBD

3) as we can see in her wedding photograph, Calvery was a large-and-tall gal

4) one of the headscarf-wearing gals in the aforementioned group-of-four was not only suspiciously not labeled by Robin Unger or Dan Roberdeau for several years -- if ever), but is noticeably larger and taller than the other three and is wearing a dark-blue blouse, a dark-blue headscarf, and a lighter-colored plaid skirt

5) standing to the immediate right (from Zapruder's point of view) of the large-and-tall gal is a young-looking guy, and next to him is a Fedora-and-suit-wearing man. We know that their names are John Templin and Ernest Brandt, respectively

6) one of the other gals in the group-of-four is tallish and slender and is wearing a white dress and a white headscarf

7) in all of the verified photos of Calvery that we have seen, she is wearing the same black-framed glasses

8 ) in Betzner-3 (and from Betzner's point of view), we can see a gal in the background who is standing to the right of a shorter guy (who must be John Templin) and we can see that this gal is either wearing a dark-colored headscarf or has dark-colored hair, and that she appears to be wearing glasses (John Iacoletti labeled her "Glasses Woman" until he realized Calvery always wore glasses) .

9) standing about three feet to the right of this dark-clad, glasses-wearing gal (from Betzner's point of view) is a gal who appears to be wearing a white dress and a white headscarf

10) in all of the known photos and films that were taken in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 (except for the Darnell clip; see below), this dressed-all-in-white gal on the north side of Elm Street is the only one who is dressed all-in-white

11) in the Darnell clip, a dark-blouse-wearing, dark-headscarf-wearing, plaid-skirt-wearing gal can be seen standing on (or going up) the lower section of the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the Z-313 shot (according to the Mark Tyler synchronized animation, etc.)

12) to the immediate right of this gal, a dressed-all-in-white gal can be seen passing this gal, and maybe even trying to pull her up the steps,

I think it's reasonable to assume that the dark-blouse-wearing / dark-headscarf-wearing / plaid-skirt-wearing gal on the TSBD steps in the Darnell clip is Gloria Calvery, and that the dressed-all-in-white gal is her South-West Publishing Company colleague, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed (and if it's the former, then the latter was "Running Woman" and vice versa.

If she is, something is far off on the supposed timing.

Considering the various witness that were all over the place, that's not surprising.

Joe Molina testified at the WC that he was on the TSBD steps, saw Truly go in, and went in after Truly. No one came up the steps and said JFK had been shot before he went in. After he was in the lobby, Calvery and another woman came in and said this.

Okay.

Buell Frazier told the WC he stayed on the steps “a few minutes” after Shelley and Lovelady had left, until people started going back in to eat their lunches. The only thing he heard, “right before” he went back in, was “somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.” The girl who said this – who was unknown to him – “didn’t tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.”

Okay.

I’ll leave it there. I still have no idea what this thread is about. There is no way to make this all neat and tidy. Ordinary people were instantly thrust into unimaginable chaos and confusion. CTers always pretend to nail things down to a level of certainty that is impossible and then to assign nefarious motives and purposes to all the dark and sinister “discrepancies” that are actually understandable and to be expected in such circumstances.

Okay.

Thanks for weighing in.

[Royell Storing]

Careful there, I believe Dan has copyrighted the term "sham" in reference to the JFKA. Having started out as an architecture major, I can tell you that architectural floor plan drawings simply do not depict surrounding structures.

Is the theory that Oswald actually exited through the Huge Gates, quickly grabbed a cucumber at the Grocery Warehouse, reentered the TSBD via the Houston Street dock, and was in fact observed by Baker, Truly and Mrs. Reid to be holding a cucumber, not a Coke, some 30 minutes after the JFKA? I like it, and I'm pretty sure Dan does, but it's gonna be a tough sell. (Note the correct use of "it's.") 

Ba-da-boom, ba-da-bing, you've been a great audience. I open on the October 10th at Shecky's House of Giggles in Paramus, NJ. Lotsa new JFKA gags.

   You're referencing an "architectural floor plan". What we are specifically looking at is, "Commission Exhibit No. 1061" of the Warren Report. This level of intentional misrepresentation is right in line with Rep Ford moving the written description of the JFK Back Wound to the Base of JFK's Neck. And when you consider that the Huge Gates, the Grocery Warehouse, and the Dock facing the railroad yard have ALL been torn down and replaced with a parking lot, that stand alone representation of the TSBD in, "Commission Exhibit No. 1061", fits what we see today like a hand-in-glove.

[Dan O'meara]

Having now re-reviewed the testimony, I am pretty impressed with my months-old recollection. I understood where Shelley and Lovelady reentered the TSBD – on the west side – but was conflating Adams’ testimony that she encountered them on her way out to the Houston Street dock. Set forth below are the relevant portions of their testimonies, together with a diagram of the first floor from John Armstrong’s site.

This is a really, really excellent piece called “Inside the Book Depository.” Chapter IX, “The Stairway,” begins at 46:00 and goes completely through the Shelley-Lovelady-Adams-Styles-Garner mystery in very clear detail: https://www.lemmi.no/p/the-kennedy-assassination-inside-the-book-depository.

I had forgotten that Adams herself suggested that her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady had been falsely inserted into her WC testimony. How does that factor into the mysterious “ramifications,” those of us trapped in the prison of rational thought are inclined to wonder?

Anyway, thus endeth my interest in this topic – whatever this topic actually is. Even though I still run half-marathons, my aged heart simply cannot take this level of excitement.



Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the
dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there
in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking
lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL. At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BILL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr.
Truly, and Mr. Shel1ey park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL. And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did.
…

Mr. BALL. Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you
go in the ordinary small door?
Mr. LOVELADY. You know where we park our trucks-that door; we have
a little door.
Mr. BALL. That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY. That’s right.
Mr. BALL. That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. That would be the west end, wouldn’t it?
Mr. BALL. Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY. No ; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL. I am?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side
of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it
from the south side.
Mr. BALL. Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY. Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL. That’s south.
Mr. LOVELADY. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this
direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL. You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY. Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL. Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY. Through that double door that we in the morning when we
get there we raised. There’s a fire door and they have two wooden doors
between it.
Mr. BALL. You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY. Right.


Miss ADAMS: And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back
of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill
Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN. When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you
mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS. While I was on the way out.
…

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock
that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don’t know
how you would describe that.
Mr. BEI.IN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas
School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS. That’s correct.
Mr. BELIN. It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and
probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Earlier in this thread the old-timer was asked to give a very simple timeline outlining how Shelley and Lovelady could be walking along the Elm St Ext a mere 25 seconds after the shooting.
In these few seconds, according to his shaky grasp of the evidence, Gloria had to get back to the front steps from her position on Elm Street, tell Lovelady about the shooting, Shelley and Lovelady then make their way across the extension to the "little, old island", before making their way along the Elm Street extension to the railroad yard. All that in around 25 seconds.
Rather than acknowledge that this makes a mockery out of his "conclusive" and "definitive" identification of Lovelady in the Darnell/Couch footage, we get this devious manipulation of the testimonial evidence instead.
The old man cherry picks certain passages from their WC testimonies to create a false narrative in which he omits that BOTH men specifically stated they were on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived at the steps and that they spent a minute or so on the island before heading along the Elm St Ext.

Even if it was just a case of Gloria getting to the steps, telling her story, both men going to the island and then heading along the extension where they are filmed by Darnell and Couch...even if it was just these things done as quickly as humanly possible, it is still doubtful the men would be filmed on the extension within 25 seconds.
It simply cannot be done and the old-timer was right to dodge attempting to take on this timeline because his delusional approach to the evidence would have been exposed.