Lovelady in Darnell and it's Ramifications.

[Tom Graves]

I was just outlining how the lies Lovelady told about his movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination evolved:

1) He stayed on the steps until he reentered the building.
 
2) He ran to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for 5 minutes. [emphasis added by T.G.]

3) He went to the island after Gloria Calvery ran up to the steps and told him JFK had been shot, then he and Shelley down to the railroad yard, taking about 5 minutes to get back inside.

4] He didn't go back inside for 20 minutes.

Dear danny Boy o'meara,

You really need to read Lovelady's two affidavits / reports again.

Here they are:

Lovelady’s first affidavit (to the Dallas Police Department) on 11/22/63:

I work at Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm. On Friday November 22nd, 1963, I worked on the 6th floor along with Danny Arce, Jack Dougherty, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens. When the President came by Bill Shelly and I were standing on the steps in front of the building where I work. After he had passed by and was about 50 yards past us, I heard three shots. There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two were right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo. After it was over we went back into the building and took some police officers up to search the building. Our lunch period is from 12 to 12:45PM. All of us had left the sixth floor to see the President.

. . . . . . .

Excerpt from Lovelady’s 11/22/63 FBI report later that day:

On November 22nd, 1963, Lovelady and his foreman, Bill Shelley, were standing on the front doorstep at 411 Elm Street at about 12:30 PM watching the presidential motorcade pass. At about this time he heard three shots. At first, he thought it was a firecracker or the backfire of a motorcycle. He could not tell from which direction the shots came. He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelly started running towards the presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and Shelley then returned to the Texas School Book Depository building. During this time he saw no one run out of the building or saw any suspicious individuals.

. . . . . . .

Questions for danny Boy o'meara:

What in the heck is "after it was over" supposed to mean? After what was over?

Did Lovelady say that he / they actually ran down to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for five minutes?

Really?

-- Tom

[Dan O'meara]

...

Questions for danny Boy o'meara:

What in the heck is "after it was over" supposed to mean? After what was over?

What we do is follow some basic rules of the English language, thomas.
We are trying to discern what the word "it" refers to.
In order to do this we need to discern the 'context' that the word is derived from.
To do this we look at the preceding sentences -  "After he had passed by and was about 50 yards past us, I heard three shots. There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two were right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo."

Lovelady is talking about the shots he heard.
The "it"refers to the shots that were fired.
He is basically saying - After the shots we went back into the building.
There is no sequence of events between the shots and re-entering the building.
He doesn't leave the steps, doesn't go across to the island, doesn't walk along the extension, doesn't hang around in the railroad yard and then re-enter the building.
There is an immediacy implied in his affidavit - he was on the steps, there were shots, he went back into the building.
This is his first and most honest account of events.

Did Lovelady say that he / they actually ran down to where the limo stopped and stayed in that area for five minutes?

Really?

-- Tom

Yes, thomas, he really did say that he ran to the spot where the limo stopped and that he and Shelley stayed in that area for around 5 minutes.
This is from his CE1381, taken March 19th '64

"I recall that following the shooting, I ran towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."

Just to clarify...when Lovelady refers to "that area" he is referring to the area where the limo stopped.
That's how the English language works.
He is not referring to the railroad yard or the island.
At this stage of the lie he is stating that he went to where the limo had stopped on Elm Street, and that he and Shelley stayed in this area for a while.
Obviously, you will just ignore this.
It won't make you think, "oh...Lovelady really did give a series of completely contradictory accounts regarding his movements after the shooting".
You were just trying to catch me out and now that has failed you will just move on from this point as if nothing were said.
That's how you operate.
You're just a troll playing a game.
It's a pity you can't see the true relevance of your own work regarding the identification of Gloria on the steps.

Just a recap on the evolution of Lovelady's lies.

1] Didn't move from the steps, went back inside building.
2] Ran down to where limo stopped on Elm Street, stayed there for 5 minutes, re-eneterd building through west door.
3] Ran across to island, moved along extension, stayed in railroad yard, re-entered building through west door.
4] Stayed outside for 20 minutes before re-entering building.

This is how I reconcile these four contradictory accounts - #1 is true, the rest are lies told to cover up his movements after the assassination.
How do you reconcile these contradictory accounts?

[Tom Graves]

Lovelady is talking about the shots he heard. The "it" in "when it was over" refers to the shots that were fired. He is basically saying, "After the shots we went back into the building." There is no sequence of events between the shots and re-entering the building.

He may have left 2 to 5 minutes out.

He doesn't leave the steps, doesn't go across to the island, doesn't walk along the extension, doesn't hang around in the railroad yard and then re-enter the building. There is an immediacy implied in his affidavit - he was on the steps, there were shots, he went back into the building. This is his first and most honest account of events.

Okay.

If Lovelady's later testimonies and interviews were lies, what's your theory as to why he (and Shelley) lied about their movements after the final shot?

1) Because they were forced to by the evil, evil CIA, the evil, evil Warren Commission, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank] in order to somehow prove that Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles came down to the first floor a lot later than they remembered? Something like that?

2) Because they were part of the conspiracy?

3) Because [fill in the blank]?

4) "Dunno"

He really did say that he ran to the spot where the limo stopped and that he and Shelley stayed in that area for around 5 minutes.

This is from his CE1381, taken March 19th '64

"I recall that following the shooting, I ran towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."

Just to clarify...when Lovelady refers to "that area" he is referring to the area where the limo stopped. That's how the English language works.

From the TSBD steps, the "old, little island" is towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had "stopped."

So, he's telling the truth there.

And by "awhile" he probably meant 5 minutes max.

He is not referring to the railroad yard or the island. At this stage of the lie, he is stating that he went to where the limo had stopped on Elm Street, and that he and Shelley stayed in this area for a while.

Lovelady really did give a series of completely contradictory accounts regarding his movements after the shooting".

Just a recap on the evolution of Lovelady's lies.

1] Didn't move from the steps, went back inside building.
2] Ran down to where limo stopped on Elm Street, stayed there for 5 minutes, re-eneterd building through west door.
3] Ran across to island, moved along extension, stayed in railroad yard, re-entered building through west door.
4] Stayed outside for 20 minutes before re-entering building.

This is how I reconcile these four contradictory accounts - #1 is true, the rest are lies told to cover up his movements after the assassination.

How do you reconcile these contradictory accounts?

Other than the HSCA interview "20-25 minutes" bit (by which he may have meant the period of time thirty minutes after the final shot in the Martin and Hughes clips in which he's smoking on the front steps, evidently having gone back outside for a nicotine "hit" once they started letting employees back in -- and after Martin and Hughes stop filming that scene, he probably went back inside), we don't know if Lovelady's statements and testimonies trend towards falsity, or truth.

But the fact that your receding-hairline "Shelley" in Couch-Darnell is probably Ochus V. Campbell, and the fact that in Couch-Darnell we can see a slender, suit-wearing "Shelley" figure and a distinctive-shirt-wearing (and bald-spot-sporting!!!) "Lovelady" figure walking/running in the direction of the railway yard down Elm Street Extension 25 seconds after the final shot suggests the latter.

[Royell Storing]

He may have left 2 to 5 minutes out.

Okay.

If Lovelady's later testimonies and interviews were lies, what's your theory as to why he (and Shelley) lied about their movements after the final shot?

1) Because they were forced to by the evil, evil CIA, the evil, evil Warren Commission, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank] in order to somehow prove that Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles came down to the first floor a lot later than they remembered? Something like that?

2) Because they were part of the conspiracy?

3) Because [fill in the blank]?

4) "Dunno"

From the TSBD steps, the "old, little island" is towards the spot where President Kennedy's car had "stopped."

So, he's telling the truth there.

And by "awhile" he probably meant 5 minutes max.

Other than the HSCA interview "20-25 minutes" bit (by which he may have meant the period of time thirty minutes after the final shot in the Martin and Hughes clips in which he's smoking on the front steps, evidently having gone back outside for a nicotine "hit" once they started letting employees back in -- and after Martin and Hughes stop filming that scene, he probably went back inside), we don't know if Lovelady's statements and testimonies trend towards falsity, or truth.

But the fact that your receding-hairline "Shelley" in Couch-Darnell is probably Ochus V. Campbell, and the fact that in Couch-Darnell we can see a slender, suit-wearing "Shelley" figure and a distinctive-shirt-wearing (and bald-spot-sporting!!!) "Lovelady" figure walking/running in the direction of the railway yard down Elm Street Extension 25 seconds after the final shot suggests the latter.

    Come on Tom. Look at that Couch "reverse negative" real good. Those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Ext close to the "island/triangle" are Not that far behind Officer Smith who has just reached the Huge Gates. 2-5 Minutes? NOT even close. I know what Lovelady and Shelley testified about 3+ minutes, but if you believe those 2 guys we see on the Couch "reverse negative" are Lovelady and Shelley, your 2-5 minutes is more like 1 minute max. Officer Smith being just ahead of them = Lovelady's/Shelley's egg timer.

[Tom Graves]

Come on Tom. Look at that Couch "reverse negative" real good. Those 2 guys walking down the Elm St Ext close to the "island/triangle" are Not that far behind Officer Smith who has just reached the Huge Gates. 2-5 Minutes? NOT even close. I know what Lovelady and Shelley testified about 3+ minutes, but if you believe those 2 guys we see on the Couch "reverse negative" are Lovelady and Shelley, your 2-5 minutes is more like 1 minute max. Officer Smith being just ahead of them = Lovelady's/Shelley's egg timer.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

You need to be more specific.

"One minute max" to what?

Walk/run to the first railroad track, hang out there for a short time, and return to the TSBD and enter it via the rear door (per Lovelady) or the west door (per Shelley)?

Regardless, how are the images in a reversed Couch clip superior to the regular images in same in determining the locations and identities of people in them?

[Royell Storing]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

You need to be more specific.

"One minute max" to what?

Walk/run to the first railroad track, hang out there for a short time, and return to the TSBD and enter it via the rear door (per Lovelady) or the west door (per Shelley)?

Regardless, how are the images in a reversed Couch clip superior to the regular images in same in determining the locations and identities of people in them?

   Do you see the 2 guys moving right alongside the "island/triangle"? Do you see one of these guys is wearing all dark? Probably a dark suit? Do you see the other guy is shorter and wearing a light colored shirt of some kind? Do you see both of the guys are walking toward the railroad yard? Do you see Officer Smith running in front of these 2 guys? Do you see that Officer Smith has reached the Huge Gates? Do you know Officer Smith's timeline? Personally, I believe the Couch Film "reverse negative" is fairly definitive as to the Lovelady/Shelley timeline. They were at the "island/triangle" at somewhere around 45+ seconds after the Kill Shot. Unless of course, you believe these 2 guys are 2 other people. That's certainly possible, but far from probable. You have viewed the Couch Film "reverse negative" right? If not, you need to get off the dime. It's this kind of lackluster effort that the Old Guard JFK Assassination Researchers have made their hallmark. Please do Not follow in their footsteps. 

[Tom Graves]

Do you see the two guys moving right alongside the "island/triangle"? Do you see one of these guys is wearing all dark? Probably a dark suit? Do you see the other guy is shorter and wearing a light-colored shirt of some kind?

DEAR COMRADE STORING,

DO YOU MEAN THE "SHELLEY" AND "LOVELADY" FIGURES?

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/

REGARDLESS, HOW IS THE COUCH CLIP "REVERSE NEGATIVE" (SIC) SUPERIOR TO THE NORMAL COUCH CLIP FOR VIEWING THE PEOPLE YOU'RE RANTING ABOUT? 

-- TOM