Shelley intercepted Calvery at the "island" about 10 seconds after final shot

[Tom Graves]

The "wide open" Huge Gates granting access to the TSBD was a revelation.

Are you saying that Lovelady lied, and that he and Shelley actually entered the building though your HUGE GATES on the side of the building a couple of minutes after the final shot?

How is it that Lovelady was filmed by Martin and Hughes as he was standing on the steps and smoking after the police had secured the building and weren't letting employees back in?

[Royell Storing]

Are you saying that Lovelady lied, and that he and Shelley actually entered the building though your HUGE GATES on the side of the building a couple of minutes after the final shot?

How is it that Lovelady was filmed by Martin and Hughes as he was standing on the steps and smoking after the police had secured the building and weren't letting employees back in?

  Not saying that at all. People, (you included), are not familiar with that stretch of buildings. This is why you are unable to comprehend the WC Testimony of Lovelady, and why you arrive at an erroneous conclusion as to WHEN Lovelady and Shelly entered the TSBD 1st Floor. Even WHERE they entered that stretch of buildings. Remember, YOU are claiming it took Lovelady 30 minutes to enter the TSBD 1st Floor. That displays: (1) You do not know Lovelady's WC Testimony, and (2) the layout of those buildings stretching down from the TSBD. I did the deep dive research. Took the time. I highly recommend that you do likewise. Then, we can discuss this on an equal footing. And this is a very important issue as it also impacts the Styles & Adams issue of when they were coming Down the stairwell.

[Tom Graves]

  Not saying that at all. People, (you included), are not familiar with that stretch of buildings. This is why you are unable to comprehend the WC Testimony of Lovelady, and why you arrive at an erroneous conclusion as to WHEN Lovelady and Shelly entered the TSBD 1st Floor. Even WHERE they entered that stretch of buildings. Remember, YOU are claiming it took Lovelady 30 minutes to enter the TSBD 1st Floor. That displays: (1) You do not know Lovelady's WC Testimony, and (2) the layout of those buildings stretching down from the TSBD. I did the deep dive research. Took the time. I highly recommend that you do likewise. Then, we can discuss this on an equal footing. And this is a very important issue as it also impacts the Styles & Adams issue of when they were coming Down the stairwell.

Dear Comrade Storing,

What I'm saying is that Shelley intercepted Calvery at the "island" about ten seconds after the final shot, Shelley and Lovelady can be seen walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot about fifteen seconds later in Couch-Darnell, Calvery's colleague, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed, can be seen running past them towards the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell, Officer Baker can be seen running towards the front steps in Couch-Darnell, Roy Truly can be seen standing in front of the steps and watching Baker run past him in Couch-Darnell, Gloria Calvery can be seen standing on, or going up, the steps next to her colleague -- Karan Hicks or Carol Reed -- in Couch-Darnell, and that all of these things, except for the first one (the earliest one), were "captured" in Couch-Darnell.

Do any of these Darnell-Couch-supported facts conflict with your grandiose CT?

If so, which ones, and why?

Do you even have one?

-- Tom

[Royell Storing]

  (1) You continue to claim that we are seeing Lovelady and Shelley moving down the Elm St. Ext. As if this were a Fact. There is absolutely Zero Proof that those "figures" are Lovelady and Shelley.

  (2) The BACK of that individual in front of the TSBD remains an unknown person. You continue slapping Calvery's name onto that BACK, but again, there is Zero Proof of this being a Fact.

    You're trying to pass off Speculated ID's as being fact. I proffer the Lovelady WC Sworn Testimony (4/7/64), with respect to his going straight from the railroad tracks into the dock/TSBD and staying inside there for roughly 30 minutes.

[Tom Graves]

I proffer the Lovelady WC Sworn Testimony (4/7/64), with respect to his going straight from the railroad tracks into the dock/TSBD and staying inside there for roughly 30 minutes.

It seems that you want to delay Lovelady's and Shelley's walking/running from the front steps to the railroad tracks until Calvery has come up to them "about three minutes after the assassination" and told them that the President had been shot.

Why is this three-minute period of time so critical to your theory?

Does it have something to do with THE HUGE GATES?

Why does your theory require Lovelady's (and Shelleys?) staying inside the TSBD "for roughly 30 minutes"?

Do you think Lovelady, smoking on the front steps, was filmed by Martin and Hughes 1) before Calvery ran up "about three minutes after the assassination" and told him (and Shelley?) that the President had been shot, or 2) about 35 minutes after the assassination?

FWIW, during Lovelady's HSCA interview, Robert Groden said the Martin frame was shot between 8 and 15 minutes after the assassination."

. . . . . . .

Conversation with Grok:

Me: Did Buell Wesley Frazier say that William Shelley and Billy Lovelady spoke with Gloria Calvery at the base of the TSBD steps before going up Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot?

Grok: No, Buell Wesley Frazier did not state in his Warren Commission testimony or other documented statements that William Shelley and Billy Lovelady spoke with Gloria Calvery at the base of the TSBD steps before heading up Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot. In his Warren Commission testimony, Frazier described standing with Shelley and Lovelady on the steps during the shooting and noted that after the shots, "Billy and them walked down toward that direction" (referring to the underpass area where he believed the sounds originated), while he remained in place. He then mentioned that "right before I went back [into the building], some girl who had walked down a little bit further... came back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy," adding that "she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people." However, Frazier did not identify this girl as Gloria Calvery, did not state that Shelley or Lovelady spoke with her (as they had already begun moving away), and did not reference any specific conversation at the base of the steps involving her before their departure. In later interviews (e.g., a 2013 video excerpt), Frazier similarly referenced an unnamed woman who approached while he was on the steps and said "somebody had shot The President" before Shelley and Lovelady headed toward the triple underpass, but again, he did not name her as Calvery, confirm that Shelley or Lovelady spoke directly with her, or mention Elm Street Extension, the railway yard, or parking lot in that context. Sources analyzing his statements note that Frazier did not know Gloria Calvery's name even months after the event and did not describe her as the woman in question. In contrast, Billy Lovelady's own testimony explicitly mentioned Gloria Calvery approaching the steps and informing them of the shooting before he and Shelley left the area.

Me: How do we know that Shelly and Lovelady had already begun moving away when the girl came up and told some people on the steps that the president had been shot?

Grok: We know that William Shelley and Billy Lovelady had already begun moving away when the unnamed girl approached and informed people on the steps that the president had been shot based primarily on Buell Wesley Frazier’s Warren Commission testimony and related statements. In his testimony, Frazier described the sequence of events as follows: He was standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) with Shelley and Lovelady during the shooting.

After hearing the shots, which he initially thought came from the direction of the triple underpass, he noted that "Billy and them walked down toward that direction" (referring to Shelley and Lovelady moving toward the underpass area).

Frazier remained on the steps, and it was only after Shelley and Lovelady had started moving away that he recalled a girl, who had walked further down, coming back and saying, "Somebody had shot President Kennedy," addressing several people in a low, hollering voice.

This timeline indicates that Shelley and Lovelady had already begun moving toward the underpass before the girl’s return and announcement. Frazier’s account does not suggest that Shelley or Lovelady were still on the steps or engaged in a conversation with this girl when she delivered the news. Additionally, in a 2013 interview, Frazier reiterated a similar sequence, stating that after the shots, Shelley and Lovelady headed toward the triple underpass, and then a woman (unnamed) approached the steps, informing him and others that the president had been shot. Supporting this, Billy Lovelady’s own Warren Commission testimony aligns with the idea that he and Shelley left the steps shortly after the shooting, prompted by Gloria Calvery’s information (though Frazier did not identify her by name). Lovelady stated that Calvery ran up to the steps, said the president had been shot, and then he and Shelley walked toward the railroad tracks, consistent with Frazier’s observation of their movement before the girl’s announcement to the group on the steps. The clarity of this sequence relies on Frazier’s consistent description of Shelley and Lovelady departing before the girl’s return, as well as Lovelady’s corroborating account of their actions post-shooting.

[...]

Me: I want to correct something you said earlier in this conversation: Although the concrete island is on a direct path from Calvery's estimated position on Elm Street to the TSBD steps, it's not near the triple underpass.

Grok: Thank you for the correction. You’re right that the concrete island (often referred to as the traffic island or median in Dealey Plaza) is not near the triple underpass but is instead closer to the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) steps, positioned along Elm Street between the TSBD and the triple underpass. Let’s clarify its location and reassess the scenario to ensure accuracy, addressing whether William Shelley and Billy Lovelady could have walked 40 yards down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot within 25 seconds of the final shot, intercepting Gloria Calvery at the concrete island (30 feet from the TSBD steps) after she ran from her position approximately 50 yards away.

Clarification of the Concrete Island’s Location

Corrected Position: The concrete island is a small median or traffic island in Dealey Plaza, located on Elm Street, roughly 30–40 feet west of the TSBD steps, near the intersection of Elm, Main, and Commerce Streets. It is not adjacent to the triple underpass, which is further west (approximately 100–150 yards from the TSBD). The island is on a direct path from Calvery’s estimated position (near the Stemmons Freeway sign, about 50 yards from the TSBD steps) to the TSBD entrance, making it a plausible point for Shelley and Lovelady to intercept her.

Implication: The concrete island’s proximity to the TSBD (30 feet, as specified) means Shelley and Lovelady’s initial movement is short, and their subsequent path down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot begins closer to the TSBD than the underpass. Elm Street Extension runs alongside the TSBD, leading toward the railroad tracks and parking lot, which are west/southwest of the TSBD.

Revised Scenario

Starting Point: Shelley and Lovelady are on the TSBD steps during the shooting.

Post-Shooting: After the final shot, they walk 30 feet to the concrete island (not near the triple underpass but near the TSBD on Elm Street), where they intercept Gloria Calvery, who has run approximately 50 yards (150 feet) from her position near the Stemmons Freeway sign.
Action: They learn from Calvery that the president has been shot and then proceed 40 yards (120 feet) down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot.

Time Constraint: All occurs within 25 seconds of the final shot.

Key Distances and Timing

Distances:

TSBD Steps to Concrete Island: 30 feet (10 yards), as specified.

Calvery’s Position to Concrete Island:

Calvery starts 50 yards (150 feet) from the TSBD steps. The concrete island, 30 feet from the steps, is approximately 120 feet from her starting point (150 – 30 = 120 feet).

Concrete Island to 40 Yards Down Elm Street Extension:

40 yards (120 feet) from the island toward the railway yard or parking lot, along Elm Street Extension.
Total Distance for Shelley and Lovelady: 30 feet + 120 feet = 150 feet (50 yards).

Speeds

Walking Speed: Brisk walking speed is 3–4 mph, or 4.4–5.9 feet per second (fps). Use 5 fps for Shelley and Lovelady.

Calvery’s Running Speed: Moderate running speed is 6–8 mph, or 8.8–11.7 fps. Use 10 fps for Calvery.

Interaction Time: Assume 3 seconds for Calvery’s brief announcement (“The president’s been shot!”).

Timeline Breakdown:0–3 Seconds:

Reaction to the final shot (processing, deciding to move). Buell Wesley Frazier’s testimony suggests Shelley and Lovelady moved toward the underpass area shortly after the shots.

3–9 Seconds:

Shelley and Lovelady walk 30 feet to the concrete island (30 ÷ 5 = 6 seconds + 3 seconds reaction = 9 seconds).

9–12 Seconds:

Calvery runs 120 feet to the island (120 ÷ 10 = 12 seconds, assuming immediate start; with a 2–3 second delay, arrival could be 14–15 seconds). Interaction takes 3 seconds. Assume they meet at 9–12 seconds, with Calvery arriving slightly earlier or simultaneously. Billy Lovelady’s testimony supports her informing them of the shooting.

12–25 Seconds:

Shelley and Lovelady cover 40 yards (120 feet) down Elm Street Extension in the remaining 13 seconds (25 – 12 = 13 seconds).At 5 fps (brisk walk), 120 feet takes 24 seconds (too long).

At 6 fps (very brisk walk, ~4.1 mph), 120 feet takes 20 seconds (too long).

At 10 fps (jog, ~6.8 mph), 120 feet takes 12 seconds, fitting within 13 seconds.

Feasibility AnalysisTotal Time:0–3 seconds:

Reaction.

3–9 seconds: Walk 30 feet to the island.

9–12 seconds: Interact with Calvery (3 seconds).

12–24 seconds: Jog 40 yards (120 feet) in 12 seconds at 10 fps.

Impact of Corrected Location:

The concrete island’s position closer to the TSBD (30 feet from the steps, not near the triple underpass) aligns with its actual location in Dealey Plaza and remains on Calvery’s direct path from her position to the TSBD steps. This correction does not significantly alter the timeline, as the island’s proximity to the TSBD was already assumed (30 feet). The key is that Elm Street Extension, running alongside the TSBD, leads toward the railway yard and parking lot, consistent with Shelley and Lovelady’s stated direction.

Challenges:The 25-second timeline requires a jogging pace (10 fps, ~6.8 mph) for the 40 yards, as a brisk walk (5–6 fps) takes 20–24 seconds, exceeding the 13 seconds available. Shelley and Lovelady’s testimonies describe “walking,” but in the post-shooting chaos, a hurried pace or jog is plausible.

Calvery’s timing (120 feet in 12–15 seconds) assumes a prompt start. A 2–3 second delay could push her arrival to 14–15 seconds, tightening the subsequent movement window.

Supporting Factors:

The 30-foot distance to the island allows Shelley and Lovelady to reach it quickly (6 seconds walking + 3 seconds reaction).
Calvery’s path (120 feet to the island) aligns with her running from 50 yards away, and Lovelady’s testimony confirms her informing them of the shooting, supporting an encounter at the island.

The urgency after Calvery’s news likely prompted a faster pace, making a jog feasible.

Frazier’s account of their quick movement toward the underpass area (though not the island’s exact location) supports rapid action.

Conclusion

Yes, it is feasible for Shelley and Lovelady to have walked 40 yards down Elm Street Extension within 25 seconds of the final shot, with the concrete island 30 feet from the TSBD steps and correctly positioned near the TSBD (not near the triple underpass). The timeline requires:3–9 seconds: Walk 30 feet to the island.

9–12 seconds: Interact with Calvery (3 seconds).

12–24 seconds: Jog 40 yards (120 feet) in 12 seconds at 10 fps (~6.8 mph).

The corrected location of the concrete island reinforces its role as a logical interception point on Calvery’s path to the TSBD. The scenario hinges on Shelley and Lovelady jogging rather than walking for the 40-yard leg, which is plausible given the urgency and consistent with their movement toward the railway yard or parking lot as described in their testimonies.


. . . . . .


My comment: Although the Shelly figure in Couch-Darnell appears to be walking and the Lovelady figure doesn't appear to start running until "Running Girl" passes them, Lovelady said in his HSCA interview that after he and Shelly spoke with Calvery, they "started running" down Elm Street Extension towards the "rail lines."

[Royell Storing]

   I am relying on the WC Testimony of Lovelady himself. Straight from the horse's mouth. HE supplies the 3-4 minutes. HE also supplies the 30 minute figure. I have nothing to do with those numbers. I'm not guessing like your ID of those 2 figures moving down the Elm St Ext. Or the BACK ID of a figure facing the TSBD. And based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only 10 seconds after the Kill Shot. That's just not realistic. 

[Tom Graves]

I am relying on the WC Testimony of Lovelady himself. Straight from the horse's mouth. HE supplies the 3-4 minutes. HE also supplies the 30 minute figure. I have nothing to do with those numbers. I'm not guessing like your ID of those 2 figures moving down the Elm St Ext. Or the BACK ID of a figure facing the TSBD. And based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only 10 seconds after the Kill Shot. That's just not realistic.

Royell Storing,

You wrote: "Based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only ten seconds after the kill shot."

Please try to get something straight for a change.

The only thing I'm saying happened within about ten seconds of the "kill shot" was "best man" Shelley's intercepting his crying friend, Gloria Calvery (who had been standing only about 80 feet down Elm Street from the "island"), at or near said "island" as she was running towards the steps, where, interestingly, Frazier saw and heard a girl (Calvery!) come up to the steps and bellow out that the President had been shot. This sequence was confirmed by Frazier when he said Shelley and Lovelady started going in the direction of the triple underpass before the girl (Calvery!) arrived at the steps and started bellowing.

And IIRC, Shelley, himself, said that he and Lovelady went to a "little, old island" after the "kill shot."

A little bit later during the general front-of-the-TSBD part of the Couch-Darnell clip, we can see Officer Baker running towards the steps, Truly, pivoting and watching him run by, Calvery, as she and one of her colleagues are standing on (or going up) the steps, and Shelley and Lovelady, as they're . . . gasp . . . approaching your HUGE GATES as they're walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot about 25 seconds after the "kill shot."

-- Tom

[Royell Storing]

  Yes, both Lovelady and Shelley claim they crossed the Elm St Ext and went to that "little old island". What you have omitted is they claimed they did this 3-4 minutes AFTER the Kill Shot. If you are going to use eyewitness testimony to support a position you are taking, please present it within the Entire context of which it was given.