Shelley intercepted Calvery at the "island" about 10 seconds after final shot

[Tom Graves]

I proffer the Lovelady WC Sworn Testimony (4/7/64), with respect to his going straight from the railroad tracks into the dock/TSBD and staying inside there for roughly 30 minutes.

It seems that you want to delay Lovelady's and Shelley's walking/running from the front steps to the railroad tracks until Calvery has come up to them "about three minutes after the assassination" and told them that the President had been shot.

Why is this three-minute period of time so critical to your theory?

Does it have something to do with THE HUGE GATES?

Why does your theory require Lovelady's (and Shelleys?) staying inside the TSBD "for roughly 30 minutes"?

Do you think Lovelady, smoking on the front steps, was filmed by Martin and Hughes 1) before Calvery ran up "about three minutes after the assassination" and told him (and Shelley?) that the President had been shot, or 2) about 35 minutes after the assassination?

FWIW, during Lovelady's HSCA interview, Robert Groden said the Martin frame was shot between 8 and 15 minutes after the assassination."

. . . . . . .

Conversation with Grok:

Me: Did Buell Wesley Frazier say that William Shelley and Billy Lovelady spoke with Gloria Calvery at the base of the TSBD steps before going up Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot?

Grok: No, Buell Wesley Frazier did not state in his Warren Commission testimony or other documented statements that William Shelley and Billy Lovelady spoke with Gloria Calvery at the base of the TSBD steps before heading up Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot. In his Warren Commission testimony, Frazier described standing with Shelley and Lovelady on the steps during the shooting and noted that after the shots, "Billy and them walked down toward that direction" (referring to the underpass area where he believed the sounds originated), while he remained in place. He then mentioned that "right before I went back [into the building], some girl who had walked down a little bit further... came back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy," adding that "she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people." However, Frazier did not identify this girl as Gloria Calvery, did not state that Shelley or Lovelady spoke with her (as they had already begun moving away), and did not reference any specific conversation at the base of the steps involving her before their departure. In later interviews (e.g., a 2013 video excerpt), Frazier similarly referenced an unnamed woman who approached while he was on the steps and said "somebody had shot The President" before Shelley and Lovelady headed toward the triple underpass, but again, he did not name her as Calvery, confirm that Shelley or Lovelady spoke directly with her, or mention Elm Street Extension, the railway yard, or parking lot in that context. Sources analyzing his statements note that Frazier did not know Gloria Calvery's name even months after the event and did not describe her as the woman in question. In contrast, Billy Lovelady's own testimony explicitly mentioned Gloria Calvery approaching the steps and informing them of the shooting before he and Shelley left the area.

Me: How do we know that Shelly and Lovelady had already begun moving away when the girl came up and told some people on the steps that the president had been shot?

Grok: We know that William Shelley and Billy Lovelady had already begun moving away when the unnamed girl approached and informed people on the steps that the president had been shot based primarily on Buell Wesley Frazier’s Warren Commission testimony and related statements. In his testimony, Frazier described the sequence of events as follows: He was standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) with Shelley and Lovelady during the shooting.

After hearing the shots, which he initially thought came from the direction of the triple underpass, he noted that "Billy and them walked down toward that direction" (referring to Shelley and Lovelady moving toward the underpass area).

Frazier remained on the steps, and it was only after Shelley and Lovelady had started moving away that he recalled a girl, who had walked further down, coming back and saying, "Somebody had shot President Kennedy," addressing several people in a low, hollering voice.

This timeline indicates that Shelley and Lovelady had already begun moving toward the underpass before the girl’s return and announcement. Frazier’s account does not suggest that Shelley or Lovelady were still on the steps or engaged in a conversation with this girl when she delivered the news. Additionally, in a 2013 interview, Frazier reiterated a similar sequence, stating that after the shots, Shelley and Lovelady headed toward the triple underpass, and then a woman (unnamed) approached the steps, informing him and others that the president had been shot. Supporting this, Billy Lovelady’s own Warren Commission testimony aligns with the idea that he and Shelley left the steps shortly after the shooting, prompted by Gloria Calvery’s information (though Frazier did not identify her by name). Lovelady stated that Calvery ran up to the steps, said the president had been shot, and then he and Shelley walked toward the railroad tracks, consistent with Frazier’s observation of their movement before the girl’s announcement to the group on the steps. The clarity of this sequence relies on Frazier’s consistent description of Shelley and Lovelady departing before the girl’s return, as well as Lovelady’s corroborating account of their actions post-shooting.

[...]

Me: I want to correct something you said earlier in this conversation: Although the concrete island is on a direct path from Calvery's estimated position on Elm Street to the TSBD steps, it's not near the triple underpass.

Grok: Thank you for the correction. You’re right that the concrete island (often referred to as the traffic island or median in Dealey Plaza) is not near the triple underpass but is instead closer to the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) steps, positioned along Elm Street between the TSBD and the triple underpass. Let’s clarify its location and reassess the scenario to ensure accuracy, addressing whether William Shelley and Billy Lovelady could have walked 40 yards down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot within 25 seconds of the final shot, intercepting Gloria Calvery at the concrete island (30 feet from the TSBD steps) after she ran from her position approximately 50 yards away.

Clarification of the Concrete Island’s Location

Corrected Position: The concrete island is a small median or traffic island in Dealey Plaza, located on Elm Street, roughly 30–40 feet west of the TSBD steps, near the intersection of Elm, Main, and Commerce Streets. It is not adjacent to the triple underpass, which is further west (approximately 100–150 yards from the TSBD). The island is on a direct path from Calvery’s estimated position (near the Stemmons Freeway sign, about 50 yards from the TSBD steps) to the TSBD entrance, making it a plausible point for Shelley and Lovelady to intercept her.

Implication: The concrete island’s proximity to the TSBD (30 feet, as specified) means Shelley and Lovelady’s initial movement is short, and their subsequent path down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot begins closer to the TSBD than the underpass. Elm Street Extension runs alongside the TSBD, leading toward the railroad tracks and parking lot, which are west/southwest of the TSBD.

Revised Scenario

Starting Point: Shelley and Lovelady are on the TSBD steps during the shooting.

Post-Shooting: After the final shot, they walk 30 feet to the concrete island (not near the triple underpass but near the TSBD on Elm Street), where they intercept Gloria Calvery, who has run approximately 50 yards (150 feet) from her position near the Stemmons Freeway sign.
Action: They learn from Calvery that the president has been shot and then proceed 40 yards (120 feet) down Elm Street Extension toward the railway yard or parking lot.

Time Constraint: All occurs within 25 seconds of the final shot.

Key Distances and Timing

Distances:

TSBD Steps to Concrete Island: 30 feet (10 yards), as specified.

Calvery’s Position to Concrete Island:

Calvery starts 50 yards (150 feet) from the TSBD steps. The concrete island, 30 feet from the steps, is approximately 120 feet from her starting point (150 – 30 = 120 feet).

Concrete Island to 40 Yards Down Elm Street Extension:

40 yards (120 feet) from the island toward the railway yard or parking lot, along Elm Street Extension.
Total Distance for Shelley and Lovelady: 30 feet + 120 feet = 150 feet (50 yards).

Speeds

Walking Speed: Brisk walking speed is 3–4 mph, or 4.4–5.9 feet per second (fps). Use 5 fps for Shelley and Lovelady.

Calvery’s Running Speed: Moderate running speed is 6–8 mph, or 8.8–11.7 fps. Use 10 fps for Calvery.

Interaction Time: Assume 3 seconds for Calvery’s brief announcement (“The president’s been shot!”).

Timeline Breakdown:0–3 Seconds:

Reaction to the final shot (processing, deciding to move). Buell Wesley Frazier’s testimony suggests Shelley and Lovelady moved toward the underpass area shortly after the shots.

3–9 Seconds:

Shelley and Lovelady walk 30 feet to the concrete island (30 ÷ 5 = 6 seconds + 3 seconds reaction = 9 seconds).

9–12 Seconds:

Calvery runs 120 feet to the island (120 ÷ 10 = 12 seconds, assuming immediate start; with a 2–3 second delay, arrival could be 14–15 seconds). Interaction takes 3 seconds. Assume they meet at 9–12 seconds, with Calvery arriving slightly earlier or simultaneously. Billy Lovelady’s testimony supports her informing them of the shooting.

12–25 Seconds:

Shelley and Lovelady cover 40 yards (120 feet) down Elm Street Extension in the remaining 13 seconds (25 – 12 = 13 seconds).At 5 fps (brisk walk), 120 feet takes 24 seconds (too long).

At 6 fps (very brisk walk, ~4.1 mph), 120 feet takes 20 seconds (too long).

At 10 fps (jog, ~6.8 mph), 120 feet takes 12 seconds, fitting within 13 seconds.

Feasibility AnalysisTotal Time:0–3 seconds:

Reaction.

3–9 seconds: Walk 30 feet to the island.

9–12 seconds: Interact with Calvery (3 seconds).

12–24 seconds: Jog 40 yards (120 feet) in 12 seconds at 10 fps.

Impact of Corrected Location:

The concrete island’s position closer to the TSBD (30 feet from the steps, not near the triple underpass) aligns with its actual location in Dealey Plaza and remains on Calvery’s direct path from her position to the TSBD steps. This correction does not significantly alter the timeline, as the island’s proximity to the TSBD was already assumed (30 feet). The key is that Elm Street Extension, running alongside the TSBD, leads toward the railway yard and parking lot, consistent with Shelley and Lovelady’s stated direction.

Challenges:The 25-second timeline requires a jogging pace (10 fps, ~6.8 mph) for the 40 yards, as a brisk walk (5–6 fps) takes 20–24 seconds, exceeding the 13 seconds available. Shelley and Lovelady’s testimonies describe “walking,” but in the post-shooting chaos, a hurried pace or jog is plausible.

Calvery’s timing (120 feet in 12–15 seconds) assumes a prompt start. A 2–3 second delay could push her arrival to 14–15 seconds, tightening the subsequent movement window.

Supporting Factors:

The 30-foot distance to the island allows Shelley and Lovelady to reach it quickly (6 seconds walking + 3 seconds reaction).
Calvery’s path (120 feet to the island) aligns with her running from 50 yards away, and Lovelady’s testimony confirms her informing them of the shooting, supporting an encounter at the island.

The urgency after Calvery’s news likely prompted a faster pace, making a jog feasible.

Frazier’s account of their quick movement toward the underpass area (though not the island’s exact location) supports rapid action.

Conclusion

Yes, it is feasible for Shelley and Lovelady to have walked 40 yards down Elm Street Extension within 25 seconds of the final shot, with the concrete island 30 feet from the TSBD steps and correctly positioned near the TSBD (not near the triple underpass). The timeline requires:3–9 seconds: Walk 30 feet to the island.

9–12 seconds: Interact with Calvery (3 seconds).

12–24 seconds: Jog 40 yards (120 feet) in 12 seconds at 10 fps (~6.8 mph).

The corrected location of the concrete island reinforces its role as a logical interception point on Calvery’s path to the TSBD. The scenario hinges on Shelley and Lovelady jogging rather than walking for the 40-yard leg, which is plausible given the urgency and consistent with their movement toward the railway yard or parking lot as described in their testimonies.


. . . . . .


My comment: Although the Shelly figure in Couch-Darnell appears to be walking and the Lovelady figure doesn't appear to start running until "Running Girl" passes them, Lovelady said in his HSCA interview that after he and Shelly spoke with Calvery, they "started running" down Elm Street Extension towards the "rail lines."

[Royell Storing]

   I am relying on the WC Testimony of Lovelady himself. Straight from the horse's mouth. HE supplies the 3-4 minutes. HE also supplies the 30 minute figure. I have nothing to do with those numbers. I'm not guessing like your ID of those 2 figures moving down the Elm St Ext. Or the BACK ID of a figure facing the TSBD. And based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only 10 seconds after the Kill Shot. That's just not realistic. 

[Tom Graves]

I am relying on the WC Testimony of Lovelady himself. Straight from the horse's mouth. HE supplies the 3-4 minutes. HE also supplies the 30 minute figure. I have nothing to do with those numbers. I'm not guessing like your ID of those 2 figures moving down the Elm St Ext. Or the BACK ID of a figure facing the TSBD. And based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only 10 seconds after the Kill Shot. That's just not realistic.

Royell Storing,

You wrote: "Based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only ten seconds after the kill shot."

Please try to get something straight for a change.

The only thing I'm saying happened within about ten seconds of the "kill shot" was "best man" Shelley's intercepting his crying friend, Gloria Calvery (who had been standing only about 80 feet down Elm Street from the "island"), at or near said "island" as she was running towards the steps, where, interestingly, Frazier saw and heard a girl (Calvery!) come up to the steps and bellow out that the President had been shot. This sequence was confirmed by Frazier when he said Shelley and Lovelady started going in the direction of the triple underpass before the girl (Calvery!) arrived at the steps and started bellowing.

And IIRC, Shelley, himself, said that he and Lovelady went to a "little, old island" after the "kill shot."

A little bit later during the general front-of-the-TSBD part of the Couch-Darnell clip, we can see Officer Baker running towards the steps, Truly, pivoting and watching him run by, Calvery, as she and one of her colleagues are standing on (or going up) the steps, and Shelley and Lovelady, as they're . . . gasp . . . approaching your HUGE GATES as they're walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot about 25 seconds after the "kill shot."

-- Tom

[Royell Storing]

  Yes, both Lovelady and Shelley claim they crossed the Elm St Ext and went to that "little old island". What you have omitted is they claimed they did this 3-4 minutes AFTER the Kill Shot. If you are going to use eyewitness testimony to support a position you are taking, please present it within the Entire context of which it was given. 

[Tom Graves]

Yes, both Lovelady and Shelley claim they crossed the Elm St Ext and went to that "little old island". What you have omitted is they claimed they did this 3-4 minutes AFTER the Kill Shot. If you are going to use eyewitness testimony to support a position you are taking, please present it within the entire context of which it was given.

Royell Storing,

Lovelady and Shelley said "three minutes" because they either had really poor memories or they were part-and-parcel of The Deep State Conspiracy (which obviously involved oodles and gobs of evil, evil bad guys who planned "the hit," "patsied" Oswald, shot JFK, planted false evidence, got away, altered oodles and gobs of photos, films, x-rays, and documents, and have succeeded in covering up The Conspiracy for sixty-two years now.

But don't you worry -- Laura Loony, Jim "I Never Met A Communist I Didn't Cherish" DiEugenio, Jefferson "Yuri Nosenko Was A True Defector!!!" Morley, and Oliver "I Hate The Military Industrial Intelligence-Community Complex" Stone are going to get to the bottom of it!

Regardless, I edited my previous post.

Here it is:

Royell Storing,

You wrote: "Based on the title of this thread, you are claiming all of this is happening only ten seconds after the kill shot."

Please try to get something straight for a change, Royell.

The only thing I'm saying that happened within about ten seconds of the "kill shot" was "best man" Shelley's intercepting his crying friend, Gloria Calvery (who had been standing only about 80 feet down Elm Street from the "island"), at or near said "island" as she was running towards the steps -- where, interestingly, Frazier saw and heard a girl (Calvery!) come up to them (the steps) a few seconds later and bellow out that the President had been shot. This sequence was confirmed by Frazier when he said Shelley and Lovelady started going in the direction of the triple underpass before the girl (Calvery!) arrived at the steps and started bellowing. (Hint: The "island" lies between the steps and the triple underpass.)

And iirc, Shelley, himself, said that he and Lovelady went to a "little, old island" after the "kill shot," but got confused as to whether they did that about ten seconds after the "kill shot," or 3 or 15 minutes after it.

A little bit later, during the 10-second-long front-of-the-TSBD Couch-Darnell clip, we can see Officer Baker running towards the steps; Roy Truly, pivoting and watching him run by; Gloria Calvery, as she and one of her colleagues are standing on (or going up) the steps; Buell Wesley Frazier, evidently listening to Calvery as she bellows out "THEY SHOT THE PRESIDENT"; and Shelley and Lovelady, as they're . . . gasp . . . approaching your HUGE GATES while walking/running down Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot about 25 seconds after the aforementioned "kill shot."

-- Tom

[Royell Storing]

    I continue urging you to actually read the WC Testimonies of Lovelady & Shelley. Shelley and Lovelady were Not walking down the Elm Ext on the TSBD side of the street. It's FACTS such as this that continue to disprove your False ID's.
    If Calvery is walking down Elm St toward the TSBD only 10 seconds after the Kill Shot, she should be somewhere on the Wiegman Film as he jumps out of Camera Car #1 as it makes the turn onto Elm St. Calvery would be facing Wiegman as he moves down Elm St.  And her size and the direction she is headed would stand out. Just as we see from that Professional Woman that was standing next to Mumford. Remember, we do see the JFK Limo as it is going under the Triple Underpass on the Wiegman Film.  Tick, Tock! 

[Tom Graves]

Shelley and Lovelady were not walking down the Elm Street Extension on the TSBD side of the street.

Well, either Shelley and Lovelady or their Deep State "doubles."

If Calvery is walking (sic) down (sic) Elm Street toward the TSBD only ten seconds after the kill shot, she should be somewhere on the Wiegman film as he jumps out of camera car #1 as it makes the turn onto Elm Street.

Weigman jumps out of the car about seven seconds after the final shot and either points his camera at the ground or twirls it all around during the period of time that Calvery was running past him.

Remember, we do see the JFK limo as it is going under the triple underpass on the Wiegman film.

Nice catch!

. . . . . . .

By the way, I just watched the Tyler synchronized animation, again.

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg

In it, plus or minus a second, the following things happen:

Calvery starts running towards the TSBD three seconds after the final shot, she reaches the "island" twelve seconds after the final shot, she finishes talking with Lovelady in the middle of the street twenty-two seconds after the final shot (Shelley is nowhere to be found), and she arrives at the steps twenty-five seconds after the final shot.

Baker arrives at the curb on his motorcycle fourteen seconds after the final shot, he starts running towards the steps 23 seconds after the final shot, he arrives at the steps thirty-one seconds after the final shot, and he reaches the front door thirty-three seconds after the final shot.

Lovelady kinda hangs out in the middle of the street, drifting slowly all by himself in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot for two minutes and thirty-eight seconds after the final shot, at which time the animation ends at a total elapsed time of five minutes.

Bottom line: I was wrong, wrong, wrong.

Calvery didn't reach the "island" in ten seconds after the final shot, she reached it in twelve seconds after the final shot.

*Caveat: I think Tyler has Calvery about twenty feet too close to the TSBD during the motorcade, so let's say she reached the "island" about fifteen seconds after the final shot, okay?