Why JFK's Tie and Shirt Slits Destroy the Single-Bullet Theory

[Tim Nickerson]

MTG--

Interesting. Great research, even if some disagree.

Pat Speer is of the view the bullet that struck JFK in the back did not pass through the body.

Pat Speer's chapters on the X-Rays and head wounds are must reads. However, his take on the SBT is seriously flawed.

Then we have Paul Landis stating he found a slug in the limo, that looked like CE-399. There was a same-day FBI memo 11/22 that a Secret Service agent had found a slug in the limo.

Landis is not credible at all. Could you post the FBI memo or a link to it?

Did Paul Landis Really Find a Bullet?

My view of the Z-film is that JBC is struck at ~Z-295, while JFK again struck Z-313.

I don't know how anyone can view the two GIFs below and believe that JFK and Connally were not hit at the same time.

[Benjamin Cole]

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29948-re-paul-landis-112263-fbi-memo-confirms-for-schnapf/

This is the FBI memo 11/22, with the FBI confirming that a Secret Service agent found a slug in the limo.

I am proud to say I unearthed this one myself. Primary research!

This supports the Paul Landis account. Even Paul Landis and his co-author did not know the existence of this memo.

Landis is credible---that is to say, no one disputes he was Secret Service, and he was where he said he was on 11/22.

Jeez, if you believe an Ed Hoffman, why would you not believe Paul Landis?

I place credibility in the 11/22 memo, as this was before people began to posture memos in accord with accepted narratives.

My best guess is the shot to JFK's back did not pass through.

Why the injury to JFK's throat? I don't know. Thompson suspected a ricochet of glass from the limo windshield, or a shard from a bullet.

[Tim Nickerson]

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29948-re-paul-landis-112263-fbi-memo-confirms-for-schnapf/

This is the FBI memo 11/22, with the FBI confirming that a Secret Service agent found a slug in the limo.

I am proud to say I unearthed this one myself. Primary research!

That's early erroneous information.

This supports the Paul Landis account. Even Paul Landis and his co-author did not know the existence of this memo.

Landis is credible---that is to say, no one disputes he was Secret Service, and he was where he said he was on 11/22.

Jeez, if you believe an Ed Hoffman, why would you not believe Paul Landis?

Landis is absolutely not credible. Read the blog entry that I linked to. Clint Hill himself said that Landis was not credible.  Ed Hoffman was not credible.

I place credibility in the 11/22 memo, as this was before people began to posture memos in accord with accepted narratives.

The 11/22 memo said that it was the bullet killed the President. It also said that Sorrells was in possession of the assassination rifle. You really need to start wearing a skeptic's cap.

My best guess is the shot to JFK's back did not pass through.

Here is Cyril Wecht on the notion that the bullet did not pass through:

Why the injury to JFK's throat? I don't know. Thompson suspected a ricochet of glass from the limo windshield, or a shard from a bullet.

Neither of those explanations are plausible.

[Michael T. Griffith]

That's early erroneous information.

No, it's not. The finding of a bullet in the limo was confirmed by Dr. James Young and Chief Mills. What makes Dr. Young's account so powerful is that he was an ardent WC believer and naively assumed that the bullet he saw was explained in the Warren Report. When he realized years later that it was not, he was so innocently naive that he called Arlen Specter to tell him about the bullet and to try to find out why it wasn't mentioned by the WC!

Landis is absolutely not credible. Read the blog entry that I linked to. Clint Hill himself said that Landis was not credible.  Ed Hoffman was not credible.

Of course. Of course. Of course. No witness who said anything that refutes your version of the shooting was credible. Not a single one. They numbered in the dozens. But, all of them were either lying, crazy, or hallucinating. Of course.

And, oh, so now you're willing to believe Clint Hill, when he says something you like! But you dismiss him as "mistaken" when he repeatedly put the large head wound in the right-rear part of the head and said that a large amount of brain tissue was blasted from the brain. Yeah, according to you, he couldn't tell the difference between the right ear and the back of the head, and he just imagined that a large part of the brain was missing. You bet.

The 11/22 memo said that it was the bullet killed the President. It also said that Sorrells was in possession of the assassination rifle.

Which makes the memo all the more credible when it says a slug was found in the limo. Clearly, the memo was not the product of some FBI agent who was positing a conspiracy.

Here is Cyril Wecht on the notion that the bullet did not pass through:

Umm, did you watch the video? In the video, Wecht says the SBT is utter, silly fiction. He says the back wound was well below the throat wound. He says the autopsy doctors could not find the point of exit for the back wound, even after they removed the chest organs. He says the bullet entered the back at an 11-degree upward angle, and that there was no way it could have caused Connally's back wound. Again, did you actually watch the video?

We know the bullet didn't pass through the neck from the ARRB disclosures, which prove that on the night of the autopsy, the autopsy doctors positively, absolutely, definitively established that the back wound had no exit point. I know you're aware of this evidence because I've presented it to you. But you just wave aside all five witnesses who saw the probing and the two FBI reports on the autopsy as "mistaken."

Ben Cole: Why the injury to JFK's throat? I don't know. Thompson suspected a ricochet of glass from the limo windshield, or a shard from a bullet.

Neither of those explanations are plausible.

They're a lot more plausible than the SBT.

[Tim Nickerson]

No, it's not. The finding of a bullet in the limo was confirmed by Dr. James Young and Chief Mills. What makes Dr. Young's account so powerful is that he was an ardent WC believer and naively assumed that the bullet he saw was explained in the Warren Report. When he realized years later that it was not, he was so innocently naive that he called Arlen Specter to tell him about the bullet and to try to find out why it wasn't mentioned by the WC!

Young said that a bullet was found in the limo by two Navy corpsman in Washington, not by a Secret Service Agent in Dallas. Chief Thomas G. Mills found bullet fragment CE-569 between the right front seat and the right front door of the limo.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=5

Of course. Of course. Of course. No witness who said anything that refutes your version of the shooting was credible. Not a single one. They numbered in the dozens. But, all of them were either lying, crazy, or hallucinating. Of course.

And, oh, so now you're willing to believe Clint Hill, when he says something you like! But you dismiss him as "mistaken" when he repeatedly put the large head wound in the right-rear part of the head and said that a large amount of brain tissue was blasted from the brain. Yeah, according to you, he couldn't tell the difference between the right ear and the back of the head, and he just imagined that a large part of the brain was missing. You bet.

I don't believe that Clint Hill was a liar. He was mistaken about some things and he remembered things differently decades after the fact. Landis is either a liar or has some form of dementia.

"Mrs Kennedy's purse and hat and a cigarette lighter were on the back seat. I picked these items up as I walked through the car and follwed Mrs. Kennedy into the hospital." -Paul Landis,  Nov 30, 1963

Not even a mention of finding a bullet fragment.

Landis said that when he got to the Kennedy Limousine outside the hospital, the president had already been taken inside, but he helped Mrs. Kennedy out. He said that there was a bullet fragment on top of the back seat that he picked up and gave to somebody. - Nov 20, 1983, The Coshocton Tribune

"I distinctly remember there was a bullet fragment on the seat which I picked up and handed to somebody." - Paul Landis, quoted in Columbus Dispatch, Nov 20, 1988

When Agent Paul Landis helped Mrs. Kennedy out of the car he saw a bullet fragment in the back where the top would be secured. He picked it up and put it on the seat, thinking that if the car were moved, it might be blown off. And then he saw a bloody Zippo lighter with the presidential seal on it. He picked it up and put it in his pocket. He picked up her hat and purse and brought them inside. -  The Kennedy Detail, page 225.

“When Mrs. Kennedy finally stood up, I looked down at the seat and saw a bullet on top of the tufted black leather cushioning behind where she had been sitting. It was resting in a seam where the tufted leather padding ended against the car’s metal body. It wasn’t a bullet fragment like the other two pieces. It was a completely intact bullet. It had been hidden behind Mrs. Kennedy all the time she was seated.” - Paul Landis, 2023

Which makes the memo all the more credible when it says a slug was found in the limo. Clearly, the memo was not the product of some FBI agent who was positing a conspiracy.

How does the erroneous claim that Sorrells was in possession of the assassination rifle make the bullet claim in the memo all the more credible? It does just the opposite.

Umm, did you watch the video? In the video, Wecht says the SBT is utter, silly fiction. He says the back wound was well below the throat wound. He says the autopsy doctors could not find the point of exit for the back wound, even after they removed the chest organs. He says the bullet entered the back at an 11-degree upward angle, and that there was no way it could have caused Connally's back wound. Again, did you actually watch the video?

Wecht's explanation of bullet penetration is valid. His claims about wound location, about the autopsy doctors, and the bullet entered the back at an 11-degree upward angle are not valid. He was wrong about all three. It was not a finding of the HSCA FPP that the entry wound was below the throat wound. Nor was it a finding of the HSCA FPP that the bullet entered the back at an 11-degree upward angle.

We know the bullet didn't pass through the neck from the ARRB disclosures, which prove that on the night of the autopsy, the autopsy doctors positively, absolutely, definitively established that the back wound had no exit point. I know you're aware of this evidence because I've presented it to you. But you just wave aside all five witnesses who saw the probing and the two FBI reports on the autopsy as "mistaken."

That's bovine scatology.

[John Mytton]

That's early erroneous information.

Landis is absolutely not credible. Read the blog entry that I linked to. Clint Hill himself said that Landis was not credible.  Ed Hoffman was not credible.

The 11/22 memo said that it was the bullet killed the President. It also said that Sorrells was in possession of the assassination rifle. You really need to start wearing a skeptic's cap.

Here is Cyril Wecht on the notion that the bullet did not pass through:

Neither of those explanations are plausible.

This is how Cyril Wecht demonstrates the SBF. Yes really!!

1. The seats were not horizontally level and in addition, Elm street had a 3 degree slope.
2. Connally's jump seat was about 4 inches to the left.
3. Kennedy and Connally were much closer in height.
4. Wecht erroneously says that the bullet passed upwards through Kennedy at 11.5 degrees(which places the assassin below the limo?) whereas Kennedy's autopsy photos definitively confirm a downward trajectory.
5. Also, the Zapruder film confirms a violent simultaneous reaction.



And just to be clear, and expanding on point 4 above, we know the bullet passed straight through Kennedy because after extensive X-rays there was NO bullets inside Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you search the body to determine if there was any bullet inside the body?
Commander HUMES - Before the arrival of Colonel Finck we had made X-rays of the head, neck and torso of the President, and the upper portions of his major extremities, or both his upper and lower extremities. At Colonel Finck's suggestion, we then completed the X-ray examination by X-raying the President's body in toto, and those X-rays are available.
Mr. SPECTER - What did those X-rays disclose with respect to the possible presence of a missile in the President's body?
Commander HUMES - They showed no evidence of a missile in the President's body at any point. And these were examined by ourselves and by the radiologist, who assisted us in this endeavor.

JohnM

[Royell Storing]

Young said that a bullet was found in the limo by two Navy corpsman in Washington, not by a Secret Service Agent in Dallas. Chief Thomas G. Mills found bullet fragment CE-569 between the right front seat and the right front door of the limo.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=5

I don't believe that Clint Hill was a liar. He was mistaken about some things and he remembered things differently decades after the fact. Landis is either a liar or has some form of dementia.

"Mrs Kennedy's purse and hat and a cigarette lighter were on the back seat. I picked these items up as I walked through the car and follwed Mrs. Kennedy into the hospital." -Paul Landis,  Nov 30, 1963

Not even a mention of finding a bullet fragment.

Landis said that when he got to the Kennedy Limousine outside the hospital, the president had already been taken inside, but he helped Mrs. Kennedy out. He said that there was a bullet fragment on top of the back seat that he picked up and gave to somebody. - Nov 20, 1983, The Coshocton Tribune

"I distinctly remember there was a bullet fragment on the seat which I picked up and handed to somebody." - Paul Landis, quoted in Columbus Dispatch, Nov 20, 1988

When Agent Paul Landis helped Mrs. Kennedy out of the car he saw a bullet fragment in the back where the top would be secured. He picked it up and put it on the seat, thinking that if the car were moved, it might be blown off. And then he saw a bloody Zippo lighter with the presidential seal on it. He picked it up and put it in his pocket. He picked up her hat and purse and brought them inside. -  The Kennedy Detail, page 225.

“When Mrs. Kennedy finally stood up, I looked down at the seat and saw a bullet on top of the tufted black leather cushioning behind where she had been sitting. It was resting in a seam where the tufted leather padding ended against the car’s metal body. It wasn’t a bullet fragment like the other two pieces. It was a completely intact bullet. It had been hidden behind Mrs. Kennedy all the time she was seated.” - Paul Landis, 2023

How does the erroneous claim that Sorrells was in possession of the assassination rifle make the bullet claim in the memo all the more credible? It does just the opposite.

Wecht's explanation of bullet penetration is valid. His claims about wound location, about the autopsy doctors, and the bullet entered the back at an 11-degree upward angle are not valid. He was wrong about all three. It was not a finding of the HSCA FPP that the entry wound was below the throat wound. Nor was it a finding of the HSCA FPP that the bullet entered the back at an 11-degree upward angle.

That's bovine scatology.

    SA Landis coming forward this late with his "Pristine" bullet story is probably warranted. SA Landis was riding on the (R) rear running board of the Queen Mary on 11/22/63. He filed an "Original Report" the day of the assassination. In that report he detailed seeing, "....a Negro male in light green slacks and a beige colored shirt running from my left to right, up the slope, across a grassy section, along a sidewalk, toward some steps and what appeared to be a low stone wall. He was bent over while running and I started to point towards him but didn't notice anything in his hands and by this time we were going under the overpass at a very high rate of speed". Other than within this report, I have never heard SA Landis ever reference his sighting of this "Negro male.." since that report was filed. I can only imagine all the pressure that was leveled on Landis when his "Original Report" became known "backstage". This would be especially true with the known JFK Assassination Images at that time NOT showing this man running across the Grassy Knoll and toward The Steps. It is easy to understand why SA Landis remained silent about the "Pristine Bullet" for all this time. This unknown but central character in the JFK Assassination has been emotionally battered for 61+ years running.