JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Who Were the Two Men Heading *Down* the Stairs at NLT 12:50?
Michael T. Griffith:
In any complex operation that requires a large-scale cover-up, unwanted information, and even highly damaging information, will often slip out here and there. This is what happened when Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney testified before the Warren Commission (WC).
The WC established that Mooney was the first law enforcement officer to go to the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) after the shooting, and that Mooney was the officer who discovered the sixth-floor “sniper’s nest.” Mooney headed up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor at no later than 12:50. No federal or local law enforcement officers were on any of the upper floors of the building between 12:35 and 1:10.
Not realizing the implications of what he was about to say, Mooney dropped the bombshell during his WC testimony that on his way up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor, he encountered two men in plain clothes coming down the stairs (3 H 284). Mooney did not recognize them, but he said he assumed they were fellow deputy sheriffs in plain clothes.
The two men on the stairs could not have been law enforcement officers of any kind (and they could not have been William Shelley and Billy Lovelady). They may well have been the same two men whom Officer D. V. Harkness encountered minutes later on the TSBD’s north loading dock by the rear door. The men falsely told Harkness they were Secret Service agents, so he did not question them (6 H 312; Dallas Morning News, August 27, 1978; Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact, p. 26; Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt, pp. 110-111). Of course, they could not have been Secret Service agents. The HSCA established that no Secret Service agents were in Dealey Plaza after the motorcade left the plaza.
The two men on the stairs were likely the men who were moving boxes around in the sixth-floor window within two minutes of the shooting. The HSCA’s photographic experts established that two photos taken of the sniper’s window, one taken moments after the shooting and the other taken about two minutes later, show that someone was rearranging boxes in the window during this timeframe (6 HSCA 109-115; 4 HSCA 422-423).
Obviously, Oswald could not have been in the sniper’s nest during that time, so he could not have been rearranging boxes in that time span. He would have had to be hiding the rifle and then running down the stairs rapidly enough to get beyond the second-floor foyer door allegedly to be seen by Officer Marrion Baker 75-90 seconds after the shooting.
For an exhaustive analysis of the photographic evidence that boxes were being rearranged in the sniper’s nest within two minutes of the shooting, see Barry Krusch’s detailed chapter on the subject in his book Impossible: The Case Against Lee Harvey Oswald, Volume Three (pp. 28-69).
We can pin down the timing of Mooney’s movements with a high degree of certainty. When Mooney found the sniper’s nest, he leaned out the sniper’s window at 1:00 to yell down to Captain Will Fritz and told him he had found the TSBD gunman’s location and to get crime lab people to the sixth floor. About 10 minutes later, Lt. J. C. Day and Detective R. L. Studebaker arrived on the sixth floor. Before this occurred, Mooney briefly scanned the sixth floor, then went to the seventh floor, then got two other law enforcement officers to come with him back to the sixth floor. Given Mooney’s movements before he yelled out the window to Fritz, he must have been heading up the stairs to the sixth floor no later than 12:50, and more likely several minutes earlier.
You might be wondering how the WC counsel who was questioning Mooney, Joseph Ball, reacted when Mooney dropped the bombshell about encountering two plain clothes deputy sheriffs heading down the stairs. Incredibly, Ball ignored the information and asked no questions about the two men, and the WC made no effort to determine the identity of the two men.
And, not surprisingly, WC apologists have virtually ignored Mooney’s bombshell disclosure.
Tom Graves:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on September 07, 2025, 12:50:58 PM ---In any complex operation that requires a large-scale cover-up, unwanted information, and even highly damaging information, will often slip out here and there. This is what happened when Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney testified before the Warren Commission (WC).
The WC established that Mooney was the first law enforcement officer to go to the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) after the shooting, and that Mooney was the officer who discovered the sixth-floor “sniper’s nest.” Mooney headed up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor at no later than 12:50. No federal or local law enforcement officers were on any of the upper floors of the building between 12:35 and 1:10.
Not realizing the implications of what he was about to say, Mooney dropped the bombshell during his WC testimony that on his way up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor, he encountered two men in plain clothes coming down the stairs (3 H 284). Mooney did not recognize them, but he said he assumed they were fellow deputy sheriffs in plain clothes.
The two men on the stairs could not have been law enforcement officers of any kind (and they could not have been William Shelley and Billy Lovelady). They may well have been the same two men whom Officer D. V. Harkness encountered minutes later on the TSBD’s north loading dock by the rear door. The men falsely told Harkness they were Secret Service agents, so he did not question them (6 H 312; Dallas Morning News, August 27, 1978; Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact, p. 26; Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt, pp. 110-111). Of course, they could not have been Secret Service agents. The HSCA established that no Secret Service agents were in Dealey Plaza after the motorcade left the plaza.
The two men on the stairs were likely the men who were moving boxes around in the sixth-floor window within two minutes of the shooting. The HSCA’s photographic experts established that two photos taken of the sniper’s window, one taken moments after the shooting and the other taken about two minutes later, show that someone was rearranging boxes in the window during this timeframe (6 HSCA 109-115; 4 HSCA 422-423).
Obviously, Oswald could not have been in the sniper’s nest during that time, so he could not have been rearranging boxes in that time span. He would have had to be hiding the rifle and then running down the stairs rapidly enough to get beyond the second-floor foyer door allegedly to be seen by Officer Marrion Baker 75-90 seconds after the shooting.
For an exhaustive analysis of the photographic evidence that boxes were being rearranged in the sniper’s nest within two minutes of the shooting, see Barry Krusch’s detailed chapter on the subject in his book Impossible: The Case Against Lee Harvey Oswald, Volume Three (pp. 28-69).
We can pin down the timing of Mooney’s movements with a high degree of certainty. When Mooney found the sniper’s nest, he leaned out the sniper’s window at 1:00 to yell down to Captain Will Fritz and told him he had found the TSBD gunman’s location and to get crime lab people to the sixth floor. About 10 minutes later, Lt. J. C. Day and Detective R. L. Studebaker arrived on the sixth floor. Before this occurred, Mooney briefly scanned the sixth floor, then went to the seventh floor, then got two other law enforcement officers to come with him back to the sixth floor. Given Mooney’s movements before he yelled out the window to Fritz, he must have been heading up the stairs to the sixth floor no later than 12:50, and more likely several minutes earlier.
You might be wondering how the WC counsel who was questioning Mooney, Joseph Ball, reacted when Mooney dropped the bombshell about encountering two plain clothes deputy sheriffs heading down the stairs. Incredibly, Ball ignored the information and asked no questions about the two men, and the WC made no effort to determine the identity of the two men.
And, not surprisingly, WC apologists have virtually ignored Mooney’s bombshell disclosure.
--- End quote ---
Dear Comrade Griffith,
Whoever they were, they must have been from the evil, evil CIA or the evil, evil CIA-affiliated Mafia!!!
-- Tom
Royell Storing:
How long after the Kill Shot did Officer Luke Mooney encounter the, "2 Men On The Stairs"? Mooney said in his WC Testimony that he and 2 other deputies walked through the "Wide Open" Gates, they then CLOSED those Gates, and then entered the TSBD 1st floor and began heading up toward the 7th Floor. The Martin Film shows Amos Euins on the back of DPD Sgt. Harkness 3 Wheel Motorcycle as they race down the Elm St Ext. Those same Gates are visible in the background. I believe we are seeing that those Gates are CLOSED. With these being the same gates that Officer Mooney physically Closed, means that at this point in time Officer Mooney is inside the TSBD. Sgt Harkness made a 12:36 DPD radio transmission that he had a witness that saw shots being fired from the TSBD. Harkness was instructed to bring the witness to the front of the TSBD. This witness was Amos Euins and Harkness immediately brought Euins to the front of the TSBD on the back of his 3 wheel motorcycle, which we see on the Martin Film. With Harkness making that 12:36 DPD radio transmission, (Harkness verified making this DPD radio transmission during his WC Testimony), we are probably seeing Euins and those Closed Gates at roughly 12:38 - 12:39 on the Martin Film. This also means that Mooney was already inside the TSBD at this same point in time. I would estimate that Harkness saw those 2 men on the stairwell at roughly 12 minutes after the Kill Shot.
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Royell Storing on September 07, 2025, 04:53:05 PM --- How long after the Kill Shot did Officer Luke Mooney encounter the, "2 Men On The Stairs"? Mooney said in his WC Testimony that he and 2 other deputies walked through the "Wide Open" Gates, they then CLOSED those Gates, and then entered the TSBD 1st floor and began heading up toward the 7th Floor. The Martin Film shows Amos Euins on the back of DPD Sgt. Harkness 3 Wheel Motorcycle as they race down the Elm St Ext. Those same Gates are visible in the background. I believe we are seeing that those Gates are CLOSED. With these being the same gates that Officer Mooney physically Closed, means that at this point in time Officer Mooney is inside the TSBD. Sgt Harkness made a 12:36 DPD radio transmission that he had a witness that saw shots being fired from the TSBD. Harkness was instructed to bring the witness to the front of the TSBD. This witness was Amos Euins and Harkness immediately brought Euins to the front of the TSBD on the back of his 3 wheel motorcycle, which we see on the Martin Film. With Harkness making that 12:36 DPD radio transmission, (Harkness verified making this DPD radio transmission during his WC Testimony), we are probably seeing Euins and those Closed Gates at roughly 12:38 - 12:39 on the Martin Film. This also means that Mooney was already inside the TSBD at this same point in time. I would estimate that Harkness saw those 2 men on the stairwell at roughly 12 minutes after the Kill Shot.
--- End quote ---
As I state in the OP, Mooney was heading up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor no later than 12:50 and probably several minutes earlier. The two men could not have been law enforcements of any kind and no TSBD employees were identified as having come down the stairs during that time period.
Judging from Mooney's description of "plain clothes," the two men were apparently in suits or at least in a shirt and tie, since that was the dress code for plain clothes deputy sheriffs and police detectives. If they had been dressed as common laborers, Mooney would not have assumed they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs.
--- Quote from: Tom Graves on September 07, 2025, 01:25:02 PM ---Dear Comrade Griffith, Whoever they were, they must have been from the evil, evil CIA or the evil, evil CIA-affiliated Mafia!!! -- Tom
--- End quote ---
As expected, your only response to serious evidence is to offer more of your juvenile silliness.
You tell me: Since we know there were no Secret Service agents in Dealey Plaza after the shooting, who were the two men in suits in the back of the TSBD who told Harkness they were Secret Service agents? Who was the man on the grassy knoll who told Officer Smith he was a Secret Service agent and even showed a fake SS ID? Who were the two men coming down the stairs who were dressed nicely enough that Mooney thought they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs?
And who was moving boxes around in the sniper's next within two minutes of the shooting? Surely even you know enough to know that it could not have been Oswald.
Royell Storing:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on September 07, 2025, 06:04:35 PM ---As I state in the OP, Mooney was heading up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor no later than 12:50 and probably several minutes earlier. The two men could not have been law enforcements of any kind and no TSBD employees were identified as having come down the stairs during that time period.
Judging from Mooney's description of "plain clothes," the two men were apparently in suits or at least in a shirt and tie, since that was the dress code for plain clothes deputy sheriffs and police detectives. If they had been dressed as common laborers, Mooney would not have assumed they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs.
As expected, your only response to serious evidence is to offer more of your juvenile silliness.
You tell me: Since we know there were no Secret Service agents in Dealey Plaza after the shooting, who were the two men in suits in the back of the TSBD who told Harkness they were Secret Service agents? Who was the man on the grassy knoll who told Officer Smith he was a Secret Service agent and even showed a fake SS ID? Who were the two men coming down the stairs who were dressed nicely enough that Mooney thought they were plain clothes deputy sheriffs?
And who was moving boxes around in the sniper's next within two minutes of the shooting? Surely even you know enough to know that it could not have been Oswald.
--- End quote ---
I would Not go as far as to say, "..could not have been law enforcements of any kind...". During his WC Testimony, Mooney detailed his encountering 2 women prior to his boarding the "Freight Elevator" to go up to the 7th floor. These women worked inside the TSBD and went up with Mooney on the freight elevator. Point is, there were people such as these women inside the TSBD during this time period. Therefore, it is "possible" that a couple of plain clothes cops entered the building and went up into the TSBD before these women entered the building. Mooney detailed that the power went out while he was on the freight elevator with these 2 women. Mooney then took these women to their office, made sure their office was secure, and then he took the "Stairs" Up to the 7th floor. This is when Mooney saw the 2 suits on the stairwell. If you can pin down when the power went out inside the TSBD, you would have a fairly good idea as to when Mooney saw these 2 suits coming down the stairwell.
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