JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
There seems to be a problem with Officer Baker's testimony.
Dan O'meara:
--- Quote from: Tom Graves on September 07, 2025, 10:54:35 AM ---
You seem to be saying that you think Adams and Styles started running down the stairs a few seconds before Oswald did and that they reached the rear of the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up the stairs. If you're right, and if that's Gloria Calvery and her dressed-in-all-white work colleague (I'm sure that it is) on the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell, if Calvery is speaking with a sitting or crouching, almost-bald Lovelady on the left side of said steps while suit-wearing Bill Shelley is simultaneously twirling out of the way of hard-charging Officer Baker in front of the steps, and if Officer Baker could hear, while running, Chief Curry's ordering men to the top of the Triple Underpass (later confusing it with his ordering all available men to the railway yard half-a-minute later), then Baker and Truly, after fiddling with the stuck elevator for a few seconds, probably started going up the stairs about a minute-and-a-half after the final shot, giving Adams and Styles enough time to get to the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up, and giving Oswald enough time to get to the second floor lunchroom before Truly, and then Baker, hit the second floor.
. . . . . . .
Me: Did Vicki Adams and/or Sandra Styles claim to have seen Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley when they reached the first floor of the TSBD?
Grok: No, neither Vicki Adams nor Sandra Styles claimed to have seen Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley when they reached the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). While Adams' official Warren Commission testimony includes a statement attributing such a sighting to her, she later denied making that claim, asserting that the passage was inserted into the transcript without her knowledge. Styles, who descended the stairs with Adams, consistently stated that she did not see either man on the first floor upon their arrival.
Vicki Adams' Account
Adams and Styles were on the fourth floor watching the presidential motorcade when the shots were fired. Adams estimated they descended the rear stairs to the first floor within about 30–40 seconds after the last shot. In her Warren Commission testimony (6 H 388–395, March 23, 1964), Adams is quoted as saying: "I saw Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady... in the first-floor hallway. I spoke to them briefly." She also reportedly indicated their location on a diagram (CE 496). However, Adams later told researcher Barry Ernest (author of The Girl on the Stairs, 2011) that this statement was not hers. She claimed it did not match her phrasing or recollection, and it was absent from her original review of the testimony draft that afternoon in her office. The original stenotype tape of her testimony was destroyed by the Commission, despite promises to preserve it, leaving no verbatim record to verify her words. In a February 17, 1964, Dallas Police interview (conducted three months after the assassination, under suspicious circumstances including a claimed file destruction due to a fire), Adams first mentioned Shelley and Lovelady—details she had not provided in prior FBI or Secret Service interviews. Instead, Adams recalled seeing and speaking to a young African-American employee near the freight elevators on the first floor, asking if the president had been hit. She emphasized the stairs were quiet and empty during their descent.
Sandra Styles' Account
Styles, a co-worker who accompanied Adams down the stairs, was never interviewed by the Warren Commission but was questioned briefly by the FBI (CE 1381, part of a group employee questionnaire). The FBI focused on whether she knew Oswald and did not ask about her stairwell descent or first-floor observations. In interviews with Barry Ernest (late 1990s and 2000s), Styles corroborated Adams' timing: they descended almost immediately after the shots, with no one else on the creaky wooden stairs (she would have heard anyone above or below). On the first floor, she recalled seeing "a few people milling around," including a Black man, but explicitly stated: "Shelley and Lovelady were definitely not on the first floor when we got there." She knew both men well and would have recognized them; she believed they were at the front entrance. When shown Adams' WC testimony quoting the Shelley/Lovelady sighting, Styles reacted: "I can’t imagine why Vicky would have said that—if she did. They definitely weren’t there." She suggested the detail might have been added later.
Context and Contradictions
Shelley and Lovelady testified (6 H 331–334 and 6 H 337–348) that they were on the front steps during the shooting, left immediately afterward toward the railroad yard (as seen in Couch and Darnell films, ~20 seconds post-shots), and reentered via the rear door 3–10 minutes later. They claimed to have seen a young woman (possibly Adams) upon reentry but provided inconsistent details and no mutual confirmation of spotting her. The Warren Report (p. 152) used Adams' quoted testimony to argue she descended later than claimed (after Oswald and before Baker/Truly's ascent), dismissing her quick timing as mistaken. This avoided addressing why she heard no one (like Oswald) on the stairs if her descent overlapped his alleged path from the sixth floor.
Supporting evidence for the women's swift descent includes: Dorothy Garner (Adams' supervisor) watching them leave the fourth floor and enter the stairs without seeing Oswald; Joe Molina (seen by Adams at the front entrance shortly after); and the absence of anyone else on the stairs per Eddie Piper's testimony (though he was near elevators, not stairs).
Critics argue the inserted testimony created a false timeline to align with the Oswald-as-shooter narrative, as Shelley/Lovelady's delayed reentry contradicts an immediate first-floor sighting. Modern analyses (e.g., enhanced photos, witness timelines) reinforce that the women arrived before Shelley/Lovelady returned.
This conclusion draws from primary sources like WC volumes, FBI reports, and Ernest's interviews/book, which align across multiple accounts despite official discrepancies.
. . . . . .
--- End quote ---
There is little doubt Adams and Styles were racing down the back stairs seconds after the last shot, reaching the first floor and exiting the north door before Baker and Truly arrived at the elevators (the idea that Truly and Baker were unaware of two women on 3 inch heels clattering by them on a wooden floor a few feet away, is a non-starter).
According to Brennan, as the limo entered the underpass he looked back at the SN window and saw the shooter stood there apparently admiring his handiwork. Adams and Styles were already in motion at this point so there is zero chance anyone making their way down to the second floor lunchroom from the SN window would have been anywhere near them.
I, too, believed Barry Ernest's account of Adams insisting the mention of Lovelady and Shelley in her testimony had been added. That is, until I heard this "lost interview" posted by Tim Nickerson:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxwdnbvEtqk
In it, we hear Vicki confirming, in her own words, her WC testimony - she raced down the stairs within seconds and saw Shelley/Lovelady on the first floor.
Not Barry Ernest's words - her words.
This made me do something not many researchers had thought to do - accept her testimony at face value.
This led to the quite startling conclusion that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination.
If we take the same-day affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady at face value we find that they were stood on the front steps at the time of the shooting, after the shots Lovelady stayed there while Shelley moved across the Elm Street extension where he met Gloria running the other way. Shelley went back to the front steps, from where Lovelady had not moved, and both men re-entered the building.
If we combine the WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady we discover:
1] Both men were stood on the front steps when Gloria arrived there - this is a lie
2] Both men state it took Gloria at least 3 minutes to reach the steps - this is a lie
3] Both men then went across to the concrete spur that divides Elm Street from the Elm Street extension (which the both refer to as the "little old island") - this is a lie
4] Both made their way down the Elm Street extension to the railroad yard - this is a lie
5] Both men hung around the railroad yard for a while - this is a lie
6] Both men reentered the TSBD building through the west door - this is a lie
7] At some point after they had left the front steps, at least 3 minutes after Gloria had arrived there, both men report Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building - this is a lie
Your own research demonstrates that Gloria was at the front steps approximately 20 - 30 seconds after the head shot. If true, it proves that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination.
Seconds after this image was captured Baker, Truly, Shelley and Lovelady entered the TSBD building.
While Truly spoke with Baker in the lobby, Lovelady and Shelley made their way to the back of the first floor where they were seen by Adams (who also spoke to them). The two white men Baker reported seeing near the elevators on the first floor were Shelley and Lovelady.
Dan O'meara:
--- Quote from: Tim Nickerson on September 08, 2025, 12:33:58 AM ---Adams was not a good witness. Nor was she an impeccable character. If one believes Barry Ernest, she was a flawed character. She denied that she said in her WC deposition that she encountered Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley on the first floor. She said that the transcript of her deposition had been altered by adding the encounter to it. The encounter was twice mentioned by her in her deposition. She claimed that Det. Leavelle lied in his report on his interview of her. She denied telling him that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She also said that he showed up at her private residence at night unannounced and lied to her about there being a fire at the station that destroyed her earlier statements.
Sandra Styles was adamant that they had stayed at the window on the fourth floor for no less than a minute after the shooting. In her interview with Sean Murphy, she was holding back on Adams. She was being kind.
Lovelady and Shelley made a trek westward to the railway tracks after the shooting, They never entered the building until several minutes after the shooting.
--- End quote ---
Where are Styles and Adams in the Dillard pic?
How does the Stroud document work if Adams and Styles went down the stairs after Baker and Truly had come up them, with neither party encountering the other?
Your slur on Adams' character is unwarranted. It was you who posted the "lost interview" in which Adams, to a large extent, reiterated her WC account - that she had raced down to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady there. I wonder what Mr Ernest made of this interview as it completely contradicted his account of Adams' words.
The lost interview is her own words.
I would like to hear the recordings of the interview Barry Ernest had with Adams.
Tim Nickerson:
--- Quote from: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2025, 01:35:56 AM ---Where are Styles and Adams in the Dillard pic?
--- End quote ---
The Dillard Pic only shows the Southeast windows of the fifth and sixth floors.
--- Quote ---How does the Stroud document work if Adams and Styles went down the stairs after Baker and Truly had come up them, with neither party encountering the other?
--- End quote ---
Dorothy Garner saw Baker and Truly on the fourth floor and assumed that they had just come up, when they were actually on their way done. That's my best guess.
--- Quote ---Your slur on Adams' character is unwarranted. It was you who posted the "lost interview" in which Adams, to a large extent, reiterated her WC account - that she had raced down to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady there. I wonder what Mr Ernest made of this interview as it completely contradicted his account of Adams' words.
The lost interview is her own words.
I would like to hear the recordings of the interview Barry Ernest had with Adams.
--- End quote ---
You slur Lovelady, Shelley and anyone else who gets in the way of your narrative. Adams was not a good witness. If what Barry Ernest says is true, she was not very credible either. Witnesses are often wrong about timing and other minor things. Adams was making claims about others that were defamatory. "Her transcript was altered. Leavelle lied about things, etc.."
Tom Graves:
--- Quote from: Tim Nickerson on September 08, 2025, 12:33:58 AM ---Adams was not a good witness. Nor was she an impeccable character. If one believes Barry Ernest, she was a flawed character. She denied that she said in her WC deposition that she encountered Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley on the first floor. She said that the transcript of her deposition had been altered by adding the encounter to it. The encounter was twice mentioned by her in her deposition. She claimed that Det. Leavelle lied in his report on his interview of her. She denied telling him that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She also said that he showed up at her private residence at night unannounced and lied to her about there being a fire at the station that destroyed her earlier statements.
Sandra Styles was adamant that they had stayed at the window on the fourth floor for no less than a minute after the shooting. In her interview with Sean Murphy, she was holding back on Adams. She was being kind.
Lovelady and Shelley made a trek westward to the railway tracks after the shooting, They never entered the building until several minutes after the shooting.
--- End quote ---
If Vicki Adams lied at some point, did she do so 1) hoping to get us to believe Oswald killed JFK, 2) to get us to believe he was just a "patsy," or 3) for some other reason?
If she was telling the truth that she had seen Lovelady and/or Shelley on the first floor after she and Styles had come down to it almost immediately after the final shot (i.e., too soon for Lovelady and Shelley to have already returned to the TSBD after their little jaunt down to the railway yard / parking lot), what are the implications, if any, regarding when Truly and Baker started going up the stairs, when Oswald slipped into the second-floor lunchroom, and whether or not that's Lovelady and/or Shelly walking/running towards the railway yard / parking lot in Couch-Darnell, etc?
Conversely, what are the implications regarding the above if she never said that in her deposition, but someone put it in there?
Tim Nickerson:
--- Quote from: Tom Graves on September 08, 2025, 02:11:52 AM ---If Vicki Adams lied at some point, did she do so 1) hoping to get us to believe Oswald killed JFK, 2) to get us to believe he was just a "patsy," or 3) for some other reason?
If she was telling the truth that she had seen Lovelady and/or Shelley on the first floor after she and Styles had come down to it almost immediately after the final shot (i.e., too soon for Lovelady and Shelley to have already returned to the TSBD after their little jaunt down to the railway yard / parking lot), what are the implications regarding when Truly and Baker started going up the stairs, when Oswald slipped into the second-floor lunchroom, and whether or not that's Lovelady and/or Shelly walking/running towards the railway yard / parking lot in Couch-Darnell, etc?
--- End quote ---
Regarding your first question, you're asking me to speculate. I'm not interested in doing so. Your second question doesn't make sense.
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