There seems to be a problem with Officer Baker's testimony.

[Jarrett Smith]

Remember that some of these SS guys were hung over. They coulda been trying to blow breakfast.

Sad that only Governor Connally heard the first shot around Z-160 and reacted by looking towards the right until being hit at Z-225. Those SS clowns still didn't react.

[Royell Storing]

Tyler makes the same point about the SS agents:

"In the Zapruder film we see no sudden reactions from the Secret Service agents at all from Z133-Z195 which leads me to believe that there were no shots at all until after Z180.  Several people standing at the lamppost by the Thornton freeway sign specifically said that the limo had either passed them or was in front of them at the first shot, which again is after Z180, thus eliminating any possibility of an early shot before that point.  Hugh Betzner took a photo at exactly Z186 and said the first shot was fired as he wound his film on, thus ruling out an earlier shot."

This is also the same point outlined in the OP of "The First Shot" thread which debunks, beyond any reasonable doubt, the notion of an early missed shot.

    Bump with respect to the Willis Girl slowing down/stopping. Just draw a line straight across Elm St from the light pole near the RL Thornton sign. There she is.

[Tom Graves]

Bump with respect to the Willis girl slowing down/stopping. Just draw a line straight across Elm St from the light pole near the RL Thornton sign. There she is.

Dear Comrade Storing,

Point being?

Did Rosemary think the early shot she'd heard had come from the light pole near the Thornton sign?

Why has she turned her head so far to her right in Z-162?

Note how Secret Service Agent George Hickey is leaning over and looking at the pavement in Z-162, as well.

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z162.jpg

-- Tom

[Dan O'meara]

My guess is Adams dramatized her testimony, in talking with Mark Lane and others.

The LHO-Baker-Truly lunchroom encounter occurred as depicted, maybe 90 seconds after the JFKA. Sandra Styles has indicated she and Adams lingered at the windows after the JFKA.

My best guess is LHO fired three shots in the direction of the JFK limo. In earnest or deliberate misses as part of a false flag op, I don't know. There were three wild misses of the JFK limo that day in DP by many witness accounts, although only three or four loud gunshots were heard. Three loud gunshots were heard inside the TSBD.

So who fired at the limo, but missed so badly they struck a manhole cover off of Elm, a curb by Tague and behind the limo on Elm St?

I don't know.

"My guess is Adams dramatized her testimony, in talking with Mark Lane and others."

There's actually no need to guess as there is photographic evidence supporting Adams' consistent claim that she raced away from the window she was looking out of, within seconds of the shooting. The crop of pic below was taken by Tom Dillard between 10 and 20 seconds after the shooting (Tyler has it at 11 seconds after the headshot). It shows two sets of windows. The right hand set, as we look at the picture, has an open window. It was through this window that Adams watched the motorcade. She must have been quite close to the window as she reported seeing Clint Hill running towards the limo and the limo speeding off towards the underpass, and this would have required her to look away to her right. She states that she decided to race outside before the limo had even reached the underpass.



We can see that the window in question is empty.
There is no-one there a few seconds after the shooting. This is incredibly strong evidence supporting Adams' claims about racing off immediately. Another point is the Stroud document. In its essence it has Adams and Styles heading down the back stairs before Truly and Baker head up. In a scenario where Adams is hanging around on the 4th floor this cannot happen. The only scenario in which Adams and Styles can head down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, and for neither party to interact with the other, is for Adams and Styles to hit the stairs running seconds after the shots, for them to be running all the way down and out of the loading dock door in the north of the building before Truly and Baker get to the back of the first floor.

I believe that is what happened as it fits the majority of known evidence about this aspect of the case.
IMO the most interesting part of this is Adams hitting the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the shooting and seeing Lovelady and Shelley there. This is something Adams told the DPD, the Warren Commission and Mark Lane.
Adams is an excellent witness, an intelligent woman of truly impeccable character. It's time JFKA researchers started to take her seriously.

[Tom Graves]

"My guess is Adams dramatized her testimony, in talking with Mark Lane and others."

There's actually no need to guess as there is photographic evidence supporting Adams' consistent claim that she raced away from the window she was looking out of, within seconds of the shooting. The crop of pic below was taken by Tom Dillard between 10 and 20 seconds after the shooting (Tyler has it at 11 seconds after the headshot). It shows two sets of windows. The right hand set, as we look at the picture, has an open window. It was through this window that Adams watched the motorcade. She must have been quite close to the window as she reported seeing Clint Hill running towards the limo and the limo speeding off towards the underpass, and this would have required her to look away to her right. She states that she decided to race outside before the limo had even reached the underpass.



We can see that the window in question is empty.
There is no-one there a few seconds after the shooting. This is incredibly strong evidence supporting Adams' claims about racing off immediately. Another point is the Stroud document. In its essence it has Adams and Styles heading down the back stairs before Truly and Baker head up. In a scenario where Adams is hanging around on the 4th floor this cannot happen. The only scenario in which Adams and Styles can head down the stairs before Truly and Baker come up them, and for neither party to interact with the other, is for Adams and Styles to hit the stairs running seconds after the shots, for them to be running all the way down and out of the loading dock door in the north of the building before Truly and Baker get to the back of the first floor.

I believe that is what happened as it fits the majority of known evidence about this aspect of the case.
IMO the most interesting part of this is Adams hitting the first floor approximately 60 seconds after the shooting and seeing Lovelady and Shelley there. This is something Adams told the DPD, the Warren Commission and Mark Lane.
Adams is an excellent witness, an intelligent woman of truly impeccable character. It's time JFKA researchers started to take her seriously.

You seem to be saying that you think Adams and Styles started running down the stairs a few seconds before Oswald did and that they reached the rear of the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up the stairs. If you're right, and if that's Gloria Calvery and her dressed-in-all-white work colleague (I'm sure that it is) on the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell, if Calvery is speaking with a sitting or crouching, almost-bald Lovelady on the left side of said steps while suit-wearing Bill Shelley is simultaneously twirling out of the way of hard-charging Officer Baker in front of the steps, and if Officer Baker could hear, while running, Chief Curry's ordering men to the top of the Triple Underpass (later confusing it with his ordering all available men to the railway yard half-a-minute later), then Baker and Truly, after fiddling with the stuck elevator for a few seconds, probably started going up the stairs about a minute-and-a-half after the final shot, giving Adams and Styles enough time to get to the first floor before Truly and Baker started going up, and giving Oswald enough time to get to the second floor lunchroom before Truly, and then Baker, hit the second floor.

. . . . . . .


Me: Did Vicki Adams and/or Sandra Styles claim to have seen Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley when they reached the first floor of the TSBD?


Grok: No, neither Vicki Adams nor Sandra Styles claimed to have seen Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley when they reached the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). While Adams' official Warren Commission testimony includes a statement attributing such a sighting to her, she later denied making that claim, asserting that the passage was inserted into the transcript without her knowledge. Styles, who descended the stairs with Adams, consistently stated that she did not see either man on the first floor upon their arrival.

Vicki Adams' Account

Adams and Styles were on the fourth floor watching the presidential motorcade when the shots were fired. Adams estimated they descended the rear stairs to the first floor within about 30–40 seconds after the last shot. In her Warren Commission testimony (6 H 388–395, March 23, 1964), Adams is quoted as saying: "I saw Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady... in the first-floor hallway. I spoke to them briefly." She also reportedly indicated their location on a diagram (CE 496). However, Adams later told researcher Barry Ernest (author of The Girl on the Stairs, 2011) that this statement was not hers. She claimed it did not match her phrasing or recollection, and it was absent from her original review of the testimony draft that afternoon in her office. The original stenotype tape of her testimony was destroyed by the Commission, despite promises to preserve it, leaving no verbatim record to verify her words. In a February 17, 1964, Dallas Police interview (conducted three months after the assassination, under suspicious circumstances including a claimed file destruction due to a fire), Adams first mentioned Shelley and Lovelady—details she had not provided in prior FBI or Secret Service interviews. Instead, Adams recalled seeing and speaking to a young African-American employee near the freight elevators on the first floor, asking if the president had been hit. She emphasized the stairs were quiet and empty during their descent.

Sandra Styles' Account

Styles, a co-worker who accompanied Adams down the stairs, was never interviewed by the Warren Commission but was questioned briefly by the FBI (CE 1381, part of a group employee questionnaire). The FBI focused on whether she knew Oswald and did not ask about her stairwell descent or first-floor observations. In interviews with Barry Ernest (late 1990s and 2000s), Styles corroborated Adams' timing: they descended almost immediately after the shots, with no one else on the creaky wooden stairs (she would have heard anyone above or below). On the first floor, she recalled seeing "a few people milling around," including a Black man, but explicitly stated: "Shelley and Lovelady were definitely not on the first floor when we got there." She knew both men well and would have recognized them; she believed they were at the front entrance. When shown Adams' WC testimony quoting the Shelley/Lovelady sighting, Styles reacted: "I can’t imagine why Vicky would have said that—if she did. They definitely weren’t there." She suggested the detail might have been added later.

Context and Contradictions

Shelley and Lovelady testified (6 H 331–334 and 6 H 337–348) that they were on the front steps during the shooting, left immediately afterward toward the railroad yard (as seen in Couch and Darnell films, ~20 seconds post-shots), and reentered via the rear door 3–10 minutes later. They claimed to have seen a young woman (possibly Adams) upon reentry but provided inconsistent details and no mutual confirmation of spotting her. The Warren Report (p. 152) used Adams' quoted testimony to argue she descended later than claimed (after Oswald and before Baker/Truly's ascent), dismissing her quick timing as mistaken. This avoided addressing why she heard no one (like Oswald) on the stairs if her descent overlapped his alleged path from the sixth floor.

Supporting evidence for the women's swift descent includes: Dorothy Garner (Adams' supervisor) watching them leave the fourth floor and enter the stairs without seeing Oswald; Joe Molina (seen by Adams at the front entrance shortly after); and the absence of anyone else on the stairs per Eddie Piper's testimony (though he was near elevators, not stairs).

Critics argue the inserted testimony created a false timeline to align with the Oswald-as-shooter narrative, as Shelley/Lovelady's delayed reentry contradicts an immediate first-floor sighting. Modern analyses (e.g., enhanced photos, witness timelines) reinforce that the women arrived before Shelley/Lovelady returned.

This conclusion draws from primary sources like WC volumes, FBI reports, and Ernest's interviews/book, which align across multiple accounts despite official discrepancies.

. . . . . .

[Benjamin Cole]

The curb near Tague may have been struck by a bullet fragment from the fatal head shot; the strike "behind the limo on Elm Street" may have been Oswald's missing-everything shot at hypothetical "Z-124," i.e., half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming (after a 17-second pause) at Z-133.

Just curious: Has "the manhole cover strike" been proved?

Not really, on the manhole cover shot, or on the shot that struck the asphalt behind the limo. Those are only witness statements. The curb shot strike by Tague was found to contain lead, but not copper. That may indicate, as you say, sone lead squished out of the Z-313 shot and struck the curb by Tague, and not a whole copper-jacketed bullet. That seem little far-fetched, but anything is possible. 

One scenario is LHO was shooting to miss, while others shot for real.

[Tom Graves]

Not really, on the manhole cover shot, or on the shot that struck the asphalt behind the limo. Those are only witness statements. The curb shot strike by Tague was found to contain lead, but not copper. That may indicate, as you say, sone lead squished out of the Z-313 shot and struck the curb by Tague, and not a whole copper-jacketed bullet. That seem little far-fetched, but anything is possible. 

One scenario is LHO was shooting to miss, while others shot for real.

There are oodles and gobs of KGB*-endorsed scenarios which, by definition, ultimately require beaucoup bad guys' to be involved, one way or another, in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, the planting of false evidence, the getting-away, the altering of photos, films, and x-rays, and the all-important (and ongoing!!!) cover up.

LOL!

*Today's SVR and FSB

A guy calling himself Herb Huskr at the "JFK Truth Be Told" FB page has shown that, given the fact that a bullet fragments from the fatal head shot dented the limo's chrome strip and cracked its windshield from the inside (leaving lead residue on the inside surface), if another largish fragment from the head shot had a slightly higher trajectory that the chrome-strip-denting fragment, it could have made it all the way to the curb, chipped it, and caused a bit of it to nick Tague's cheek.

I posted his article on another thread.

Have you read it, yet?

This is what Huskr posted at that other forum about a year ago:

There is some active discussion on another forum where I’m not a member about James Tague being hit, a curb mark, and what happened there.
This post is about some modeling and simulation results made awhile back evaluating a possibility to explain that Tague incident. I’ve not routinely discussed these details before because there is a back story that suggests that the modeling indicated how wrong I may have been with my initial gut feeling, and who wants to embarrass themselves by admitting they may have been misled by an erroneous gut-feeling bias.

The modeling was done a few of years back to try and prove this initial assumption:

A missing fragment from the z313 head shot could not have made it to Tague and created a shallow curb divot sending mortar/sand shards up and out, with some striking Tague in the cheek while he was standing nearby.

The envisioned scenario (initial gut feeling scenario) looked something like the following:

A disfigured lead, or lead with residual copper, bullet fragment flying forward escaped the limo from the third shot, at maybe 400 ft/sec, continued on to strike the curb with a compressive strike from a mostly horizontal trajectory, hitting at a reduced velocity around 200 ft/sec or so. This possibility was expected to be proven untenable and therefore likely wouldn’t happen.

Results:

Embarrassingly enough, the modeling predicted I would be wrong on every single account!

A fragment could have made it to Tague

The initial exit velocity would be more than twice the 400 ft/sec I was thinking

The final velocity would be even less than half the 200 ft/sec I was thinking

The angle at striking would be opposite, nearly vertical, instead of more horizontal like I thought

The curb strike likely presented a shearing force rather than the head-on compression force I expected

Talk about being wrong!

A crude curb-strike simulation was subsequently conducted to look at this because the predictions seemed so unusual.

Overall, the modeling and simulation indicated the scenario looked to be a real possibility, with a limo exiting fragment able to reach the curb by Tague and cause a spray of surface mortar that could hit him.

It is still possible the model is not accurate enough, or the fresh mark was not related to a bullet at all, but the modeling came up with numbers that were largely predictive of observations that others subsequently measured on such fragments, like what Lucian Haag found for fragment exit velocities in his simulated skull test shots experiments, and Carcano fragment ballistic coefficients.

Two options for base case trajectories for the incident are depicted on the attached graphs.

Based on the modeling and simulation, I now favor that a rogue fragment from the head shot caused the Tague incident.

I will try to make a link to a summary with more details for those interested in ballistics, etc.

The study details can be found here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CcnCy17Hwqqw3zBCK7ls8peA3DxmVzhk/view?fbclid=IwY2xjawMhX_FleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETE4VkU5OWFad0pmb1lWbEZuAR5CqzVfS_kwwhC_esko7HReWTqLEm4HwHGKLg7IekI23kvFroXG0TSxU8jJ7A_aem_AKz6PqzUnM04cOaEZOVC6g

[Royell Storing]

Not really, on the manhole cover shot, or on the shot that struck the asphalt behind the limo. Those are only witness statements. The curb shot strike by Tague was found to contain lead, but not copper. That may indicate, as you say, sone lead squished out of the Z-313 shot and struck the curb by Tague, and not a whole copper-jacketed bullet. That seem little far-fetched, but anything is possible. 

One scenario is LHO was shooting to miss, while others shot for real.

   That manhole cover had a cluster of Investigators around it immediately after the Kill Shot and several hours thereafter. There are photos taken from the sniper's nest that same afternoon showing a gaggle of "suits" still surrounding that manhole cover. I'm not saying there's bullet fragments or bullet trails on the ground there, but something held these guys attention for an extended period of time that day. Even a CSI Suitcase is pictured open and sitting on the ground in that same South grass section between Elm St. & Main St on 11/22/63.