JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
If they weren't already brainwashed, what would convince CTs that LHO did it?
Tom Graves:
If they weren't already brainwashed and have a deep psychological need to believe that the evil, evil, evil CIA or [fill in the blank] killed JFK, what would it take to convince hardcore CTs that self-described Marxist and former Marine sharpshooter Lee Harvey Oswald killed him by firing three shots over 10.2 seconds in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza?
1) Proving that sneaky Oswald, instead of buying a bottle of his favorite soft drink, Dr. Pepper, from the dedicated Dr. Pepper machine on the first floor, bought in-advance a bottle Coca-Cola from the dedicated Coca-Cola machine on the second floor so he could use it as a prop after the shooting?
2) Proving that Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot was fired half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133?
3) Proving that it missed everything because it was steeply-downward-angled and required him to stand and lean forward awkwardly while firing it?
4) Demonstrating the perfect alignment -- based on analysis of the imperfect Zapruder film -- of CE-399's trajectory from the Sniper's Nest window through JFK's bunched-up jacket and shirt, his back and throat wounds, his tie, JBC's back wound, JBC's chest wound, JBC's wrist wound, and JBC's thigh wound?
5) Demonstrating on a live man -- who's sitting and wearing a tight back brace -- that when you destroy the right side of his brain with a 160-grain bullet that's travelling about 1300 mph, all of the muscles on the left side of his body will violently contract?
6) Proving that James Tague was nicked by a bullet fragment from the fatal head shot?
7) Proving that Vicki Adams spaced out on how long she and Sandra Styles had lingered at the window and then spoken with their supervisor before starting down the stairs?
8 ) Proving that Truly and Officer Baker actually took [fill in the blank] seconds to reach the second floor?
9) Proving that Oswald, Baker and Truly were inside the second-floor lunchroom when Adams and Styles were briefly on said floor?
Anything else?
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Tom Graves on August 31, 2025, 03:45:41 AM ---Proving that James Tague was nicked by a bullet fragment from the fatal head shot?
--- End quote ---
This silly piece of fiction is indicative of your other arguments. Any fragment leaving JFK's head would have had to clear the limo's roll bar and windshield, travel several hundred feet while magically veering downward in midair, and then hit the curb with enough force to send concrete or metal streaking toward Tague with enough velocity to cut his face, not to mention that Tague said he was wounded right after the second shot.
Tom Graves:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on August 31, 2025, 05:25:55 PM ---This silly piece of fiction is indicative of your other arguments. Any fragment leaving JFK's head would have had to clear the limo's roll bar and windshield, travel several hundred feet while magically veering downward in midair, and then hit the curb with enough force to send concrete or metal streaking toward Tague with enough velocity to cut his face, not to mention that Tague said he was wounded right after the second shot.
--- End quote ---
Griffith,
Someone calling themselves Herb Huskr posted this at another forum a year ago:
There is some active discussion on another forum where I’m not a member about James Tague being hit, a curb mark, and what happened there.
This post is about some modeling and simulation results made awhile back evaluating a possibility to explain that Tague incident. I’ve not routinely discussed these details before because there is a back story that suggests that the modeling indicated how wrong I may have been with my initial gut feeling, and who wants to embarrass themselves by admitting they may have been misled by an erroneous gut-feeling bias.
The modeling was done a few of years back to try and prove this initial assumption:
A missing fragment from the z313 head shot could not have made it to Tague and created a shallow curb divot sending mortar/sand shards up and out, with some striking Tague in the cheek while he was standing nearby.
The envisioned scenario (initial gut feeling scenario) looked something like the following:
A disfigured lead, or lead with residual copper, bullet fragment flying forward escaped the limo from the third shot, at maybe 400 ft/sec, continued on to strike the curb with a compressive strike from a mostly horizontal trajectory, hitting at a reduced velocity around 200 ft/sec or so. This possibility was expected to be proven untenable and therefore likely wouldn’t happen.
Results:
Embarrassingly enough, the modeling predicted I would be wrong on every single account!
A fragment could have made it to Tague
The initial exit velocity would be more than twice the 400 ft/sec I was thinking
The final velocity would be even less than half the 200 ft/sec I was thinking
The angle at striking would be opposite, nearly vertical, instead of more horizontal like I thought
The curb strike likely presented a shearing force rather than the head-on compression force I expected
Talk about being wrong!
A crude curb-strike simulation was subsequently conducted to look at this because the predictions seemed so unusual.
Overall, the modeling and simulation indicated the scenario looked to be a real possibility, with a limo exiting fragment able to reach the curb by Tague and cause a spray of surface mortar that could hit him.
It is still possible the model is not accurate enough, or the fresh mark was not related to a bullet at all, but the modeling came up with numbers that were largely predictive of observations that others subsequently measured on such fragments, like what Lucian Haag found for fragment exit velocities in his simulated skull test shots experiments, and Carcano fragment ballistic coefficients.
Two options for base case trajectories for the incident are depicted on the attached graphs.
Based on the modeling and simulation, I now favor that a rogue fragment from the head shot caused the Tague incident.
I will try to make a link to a summary with more details for those interested in ballistics, etc.
The study details can be found here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CcnCy17Hwqqw3zBCK7ls8peA3DxmVzhk/view?fbclid=IwY2xjawMhX_FleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETE4VkU5OWFad0pmb1lWbEZuAR5CqzVfS_kwwhC_esko7HReWTqLEm4HwHGKLg7IekI23kvFroXG0TSxU8jJ7A_aem_AKz6PqzUnM04cOaEZOVC6g
[Emphasis added by T. Graves]
Michael T. Griffith:
The zany theory that a fragment from the head shot hit Tague and/or hit the curb near Tague and sent a metal/concrete fragment streaking toward Tague is a perfect example of the kind of hilarious, strained speculation that WC apologists are often forced to float.
To get some idea of how ludicrous this theory is, I recommend reading my article "The Wounding of James Tague Refutes the Lone-Gunman Theory":
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QGE1Se8HuF99CToouKhKW0OSRprmspwX/view
I discuss this issue at much greater length in my book A Comforting Lie: The Myth that a Lone Gunman Killed President Kennedy.
Here's an excerpt from my article:
In addition, if the missile had been fired from the
sixth-floor window, the bullet would have approached
from the right rear and would have struck the head
at a downward angle of around 20 degrees. How would
a fragment from such a bullet have traveled upward
so as to clear both the roll bar and the windshield?
Could a fragment from the head shot have struck
Tague's face directly, that is, without hitting anything
else first? This suggestion is as problematic as the
theory that a fragment caused the mark on the curb.
For example, in order to have struck Tague's face, the
fragment still would have had to somehow fly over the
limousine's roll bar and windshield. Dr. Tom Canning,
the trajectory expert for the House Select Committee
on Assassinations, told the committee that the
windshield damage appeared to be too high to have
been caused by a fragment from the head-shot missile.
Yet, to accept the theory that a fragment from this
bullet somehow reached Tague, we would have to believe
that the fragment flew well above the damaged portions
of the windshield. In fact, it would have had to clear
the roll bar and the windshield. But if it had managed
to do this, how could it have gone on to strike the curb
and/or Tague with any appreciable force?
I should add that, according to the lone-gunman theory, any head-shot fragment would have come from the exit wound seen in the autopsy photos, and in those photos the exit wound is directly above the right ear, but Tague and the Tague curb mark were to the left of JFK. So not only would this magic fragment have had to somehow clear the roll bar and the windshield after coming from a bullet that supposedly struck at a downward angle of 20 degrees, but it would have had to magically veer leftward and downward after supposedly leaving the skull traveling upward and/or upward and rightward.
It is no wonder that WC staffers and the FBI did their best to try to ignore the Tague wounding. Luckily, they were unable to do so because Tague's case appeared in some newspapers. The Tague wounding was an added reason that WC staffer Arlen Specter had to concoct the single-bullet theory.
Tom Graves:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on August 31, 2025, 10:34:34 PM ---The zany theory that a fragment from the head shot hit Tague and/or hit the curb near Tague and sent a metal/concrete fragment streaking toward Tague is a perfect example of the kind of hilarious, strained speculation that WC apologists are often forced to float.
To get some idea of how ludicrous this theory is, I recommend reading my article "The Wounding of James Tague Refutes the Lone-Gunman Theory":
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QGE1Se8HuF99CToouKhKW0OSRprmspwX/view
I discuss this issue at much greater length in my book A Comforting Lie: The Myth that a Lone Gunman Killed President Kennedy.
Here's an excerpt from my article:
In addition, if the missile had been fired from the sixth-floor window, the bullet would have approached from the right rear and would have struck the head at a downward angle of around 20 degrees. How would a fragment from such a bullet have traveled upward so as to clear both the roll bar and the windshield? Could a fragment from the head shot have struck Tague's face directly, that is, without hitting anything else first? This suggestion is as problematic as the theory that a fragment caused the mark on the curb. For example, in order to have struck Tague's face, the
fragment still would have had to somehow fly over the limousine's roll bar and windshield. Dr. Tom Canning, the trajectory expert for the House Select Committee on Assassinations, told the committee that the windshield damage appeared to be too high to have been caused by a fragment from the head-shot missile. Yet, to accept the theory that a fragment from this bullet somehow reached Tague, we would have to believe that the fragment flew well above the damaged portions of the windshield. In fact, it would have had to clear the roll bar and the windshield. But if it had managed to do this, how could it have gone on to strike the curb and/or Tague with any appreciable force?
I should add that, according to the lone-gunman theory, any head-shot fragment would have come from the exit wound seen in the autopsy photos, and in those photos the exit wound is directly above the right ear, but Tague and the Tague curb mark were to the left of JFK. So not only would this magic fragment have had to somehow clear the roll bar and the windshield after coming from a bullet that supposedly struck at a downward angle of 20 degrees, but it would have had to magically veer leftward and downward after supposedly leaving the skull traveling upward and/or upward and rightward. It is no wonder that WC staffers and the FBI did their best to try to ignore the Tague wounding. Luckily, they were unable to do so because Tague's case appeared in some newspapers. The Tague wounding was an added reason that WC staffer Arlen Specter had to concoct the single-bullet theory.
--- End quote ---
Dear Michael "'Useful Idiot' or Worse" Griffith,
Your calling Huskr's theory "zany" doesn't invalidate it.
Your posting that lame excerpt from your article suggests that you haven't even read the eight-page article by Huskr that I provided to you in my earlier post.
Questions:
1) What percentage of the headshot bullet was found inside the limo? 60%? 70%?
2) If the dent in the chrome wasn't caused by a fragment from the headshot bullet, what caused it?
-- Tom
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