What if the sixth floor had not been empty?

[John Mytton]

There appears that there was a discussion about some workers meeting up on the 6th floor.

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.

Williams account of his 6th floor visit to me is a bit suspicious, he had no trouble going straight to the window directly below but for some reason he didn't go to the equivalent windows on the 6th floor but instead situated himself in the middle of the floor and stayed put? When this came up in Williams WC testimony, Dulles may have had a similar doubt because at this point in time, Dulles suddenly brings up if Williams had any trouble with the "law"? I reckon Williams may have seen Oswald but being black wanted nothing to do with seeing the President's assassin just minutes before the shooting? This could also explain some of the early discrepancies with Norman, Jarman and William's initial recollections?

Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.



JohnM

[Jarrett Smith]

That (fifth floor) was my recollection as well. In any event, I'm talking about the entire period preceding the assassination. It is a fact that the sixth floor was empty and perhaps even that the elevators were not readily available after everyone had departed, but I don't see how anyone including Oswald could reasonably have anticipated this in advance. How could Oswald know that some or all of the departing members of the flooring crew wouldn't say "We'll be right back up with our lunches because we want to watch from here"? How could he know that Jarman, Norman and Williams wouldn't decide the view from the sixth floor might be better than the fifth?

I don't want to get as locked-in to my theory as many CTers are to theirs, but the most believable scenario to me is that (1) Oswald had done nothing resembling assassination planning and was not fully committed to the JFKA until the morning of 11-22; (2) by the morning of the JFKA, Oswald was at the end of his rope psychologically, had no expectation of escaping the TSBD, and thus had no plan of escape; (3) he was surprised and happy to find himself alone on the sixth floor, astonished to survive the lunchroom encounter, and equally astonished to find himself outside the TSBD; and (4) everything after that was Oswald thinking on the run and flying by the seat of his pants. Lawyers are always looking for what they call a "theory of the case" that the judge or jury will accept as believable, and that's what I try to do: What makes the most sense as to what was really going on with Oswald?

Lastly, the uncertainty that the sixth floor would be empty seems to me a far bigger risk for supposed conspirators than the risk of getting in and out of the TSBD, which is why I do think this risk is the kiss of death for any theory that has someone other than Oswald being the sixth-floor shooter. A rational conspiracy theory has to accept Oswald as one of the shooters, even if it posits him as a patsy shooter who thought he was involved in a pro-Castro conspiracy when it was exactly the opposite. Oswald as an innocent patsy is simply nonsense, just people playing Oswald defense counsel for some reason I can't fathom. I do agree that Rowland probably saw Oswald down at the west end.

No doubt he was shooting and killed Tippit. Had there been somebody else on the sixth floor it could have been prevented. The Miami Motorcade was cancelled several days before Dallas due to the leaked plot from Milteer.

[Lance Payette]

There appears that there was a discussion about some workers meeting up on the 6th floor.

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.

Williams account of his 6th floor visit to me is a bit suspicious, he had no trouble going straight to the window directly below but for some reason he didn't go to the equivalent windows on the 6th floor but instead situated himself in the middle of the floor and stayed put? When this came up in Williams WC testimony, Dulles may have had a similar doubt because at this point in time, Dulles suddenly brings up if Williams had any trouble with the "law"? I reckon Williams may have seen Oswald but being black wanted nothing to do with seeing the President's assassin just minutes before the shooting? This could also explain some of the early discrepancies with Norman, Jarman and William's initial recollections?

Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.



JohnM

Thanks, John, good points. I just once again skimmed the WC testimony of Williams, Norman, Jarman and Givens, and just those four underscore how iffy it was that the sixth floor would be empty during the time of the JFKA. I can well believe that any Black guy who was on the fifth or sixth floor from 11:30 to 12:15 would want to distance himself from having any reason to be suspicious of Oswald. Givens said that after first going down for lunch he went immediately back up to get his jacket and cigarettes and saw Oswald with his clipboard walking toward the elevator from the southeast corner; Williams said he went back up and spent long enough to eat his lunch but saw no one, neither Givens nor Oswald; and Rowland seemed very sure that he saw the guy with the rifle standing at the southwest window at 12:15. If Rowland was truthful, it seems unlikely that Williams wouldn't have seen Oswald, although I suppose it's possible Oswald waited until he was sure Williams was gone and then emerged with the rifle to be seen by Rowland, feeling pretty sure by 12:15 or 12:20 that he was alone. (Yes, folks, I know all about the changes in Givens' story, which are highly suspicious even to me. My only point here is that Oswald could have had no confidence about being alone on the sixth floor, but at least he could have more easily talked his way out of being observed than could a complete stranger with a rifle.)

[Bill Brown]

Mr. DULLES... How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS... Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.

[Richard Smith]

Assassinating the president from a building is fraught with all types of risk.  Oswald was a smart fellow.  He was familiar with the building and the movements of those who worked on the 6th floor at lunch time.  Based on the Walker shooting, Oswald likely made an assessment in the days leading up to the assassination of the locations that gave him the best combination of seclusion and shooting location.  The boxes around the 6th floor window were ideal for that purpose.  My guess is that he had an alternative location in mind if that was not available.  Perhaps on the 7th floor.  The ledge under the 7th floor windows, however, present some obstruction.  So the 6th floor was the better option if available to him.  Oswald hides the gun on that floor that morning.  He walks around the floor with his clipboard before the assassination giving him the appearance of a work-related excuse to be there and allowing him to scout out the situation.  When he decides to retrieve the rifle, he places the clipboard down.  Meaning that the area in which the clipboard is found is likely the same area where he hid the rifle that morning.  The fact that he fired the shots from the 6th floor doesn't mean that he had to do so and could not have had an alternative in mind had there been some group of folks on that floor.  In other words, Oswald doesn't have to ensure that no one was there.  He just has to find a place in the building where no one was present.   

[Lance Payette]

Just thinking out loud again …

What struck me about Williams’ efforts to show he couldn’t have seen Oswald in the sniper’s nest is that he should have been able to see Rowland’s guy by the southwest window if there was any overlap in time. Because I’m stuck inside the house, I spent some time trying to put together a realistic scenario and had a heck of a time. The actual timing of what occurred is critical.

It's hard to determine exactly when the flooring crew actually went down. It appears some of them understandably may have been reluctant to admit they knocked off work earlier than usual. My best estimate would be 11:40-11:45, which is what some said.

No one really saw Oswald on the sixth floor before the crew knocked off. Williams said he might have seen him messing with boxes during the morning, but not near the sniper’s nest. This would have been consistent with Oswald’s order-filling work, and Williams was very unsure. The unreliable Dougherty said he encountered him at the boxes about 11 AM, routinely filling orders.

When the flooring crew went down, the consensus was that Oswald was near the east elevator on the fifth floor. He called out something about leaving the gate open when they got to the first floor.

Shelley was absolutely consistent in having seen Oswald working and standing near the telephone on the first floor around 11:50 (rather odd if Shelley was part of some conspiracy to frame him!). Piper spoke to him on the first floor at about noon, when Oswald said he was going up to lunch.

Everything suggests to me that Oswald was keeping up the appearance of business as usual until at least noon. This obviously would have been smart – make sure you’re seen working and not on the sixth floor. He could have assembled and stashed the rifle before the flooring crew started work, or just a short time before the assassination – it was not a big project.

Givens didn’t mention his sixth-floor encounter with Oswald until the WC. As a Black guy with a criminal record who'd left the TSBD, the last thing Givens needed was to have been alone with Oswald on the sixth floor. I see nothing suspicious about omitting the encounter until the WC.

Givens strongly suggests the crew left fairly early. He went downstairs, went to the bathroom, encountered Oswald when he went back up, and was still out of the TSBD at noon. One possibility is that he encountered Oswald before Oswald was seen by Shelley and Piper on the first floor. He reported Oswald walking toward the elevator from the area of the sniper’s nest with his clipboard in his hand. Oswald declined a ride down but said he’d be down shortly. This would be my guess – Oswald had gone from the fifth floor to the sixth via the stairs and encountered Givens before he (Oswald) went down.

Then we have Williams, another Black guy who understandably would have wanted to distance himself from seeing Oswald or anything suspicious on the sixth floor while he was eating his lunch. He said he could not see any part of the sniper’s nest area other than the top of the window as he ate his lunch – but he seemingly should have seen Rowland’s guy if the latter were over by the southwest window.

If Williams’ estimate of the time is pretty close, he could have arrived at the sixth floor just shortly after Oswald – say 3-5 minutes after noon - and could have left a few minutes before Rowland saw Oswald at the southwest window. Oswald would have been quiet in the sniper’s nest during this time and emerged after hearing Williams leaving.

I’m still a bit troubled by Rowland’s story. It seems very risky for Oswald to be standing at the southwest window with his rifle in that manner, and I’m not sure what he would be doing other than testing it as an alternative to the sniper’s nest. By that time – 12:15 or perhaps 12:20, he would have been pretty confident of being alone on the sixth floor and presumably could have heard anyone coming up.

I’m not, of course, factoring in any of the conspiracy-oriented discrepancies (such as having Piper on the sixth floor actually witnessing the shooting!). I’m trying to picture what actually occurred, with people perhaps being off on their time estimates by a critical few minutes here and there but not blatantly lying. Shelley seems to me a very good “time anchor” for Oswald being on the first floor just shortly before noon, which is not at all implausible.

[Charles Collins]

Just thinking out loud again …

What struck me about Williams’ efforts to show he couldn’t have seen Oswald in the sniper’s nest is that he should have been able to see Rowland’s guy by the southwest window if there was any overlap in time. Because I’m stuck inside the house, I spent some time trying to put together a realistic scenario and had a heck of a time. The actual timing of what occurred is critical.

It's hard to determine exactly when the flooring crew actually went down. It appears some of them understandably may have been reluctant to admit they knocked off work earlier than usual. My best estimate would be 11:40-11:45, which is what some said.

No one really saw Oswald on the sixth floor before the crew knocked off. Williams said he might have seen him messing with boxes during the morning, but not near the sniper’s nest. This would have been consistent with Oswald’s order-filling work, and Williams was very unsure. The unreliable Dougherty said he encountered him at the boxes about 11 AM, routinely filling orders.

When the flooring crew went down, the consensus was that Oswald was near the east elevator on the fifth floor. He called out something about leaving the gate open when they got to the first floor.

Shelley was absolutely consistent in having seen Oswald working and standing near the telephone on the first floor around 11:50 (rather odd if Shelley was part of some conspiracy to frame him!). Piper spoke to him on the first floor at about noon, when Oswald said he was going up to lunch.

Everything suggests to me that Oswald was keeping up the appearance of business as usual until at least noon. This obviously would have been smart – make sure you’re seen working and not on the sixth floor. He could have assembled and stashed the rifle before the flooring crew started work, or just a short time before the assassination – it was not a big project.

Givens didn’t mention his sixth-floor encounter with Oswald until the WC. As a Black guy with a criminal record who'd left the TSBD, the last thing Givens needed was to have been alone with Oswald on the sixth floor. I see nothing suspicious about omitting the encounter until the WC.

Givens strongly suggests the crew left fairly early. He went downstairs, went to the bathroom, encountered Oswald when he went back up, and was still out of the TSBD at noon. One possibility is that he encountered Oswald before Oswald was seen by Shelley and Piper on the first floor. He reported Oswald walking toward the elevator from the area of the sniper’s nest with his clipboard in his hand. Oswald declined a ride down but said he’d be down shortly. This would be my guess – Oswald had gone from the fifth floor to the sixth via the stairs and encountered Givens before he (Oswald) went down.

Then we have Williams, another Black guy who understandably would have wanted to distance himself from seeing Oswald or anything suspicious on the sixth floor while he was eating his lunch. He said he could not see any part of the sniper’s nest area other than the top of the window as he ate his lunch – but he seemingly should have seen Rowland’s guy if the latter were over by the southwest window.

If Williams’ estimate of the time is pretty close, he could have arrived at the sixth floor just shortly after Oswald – say 3-5 minutes after noon - and could have left a few minutes before Rowland saw Oswald at the southwest window. Oswald would have been quiet in the sniper’s nest during this time and emerged after hearing Williams leaving.

I’m still a bit troubled by Rowland’s story. It seems very risky for Oswald to be standing at the southwest window with his rifle in that manner, and I’m not sure what he would be doing other than testing it as an alternative to the sniper’s nest. By that time – 12:15 or perhaps 12:20, he would have been pretty confident of being alone on the sixth floor and presumably could have heard anyone coming up.

I’m not, of course, factoring in any of the conspiracy-oriented discrepancies (such as having Piper on the sixth floor actually witnessing the shooting!). I’m trying to picture what actually occurred, with people perhaps being off on their time estimates by a critical few minutes here and there but not blatantly lying. Shelley seems to me a very good “time anchor” for Oswald being on the first floor just shortly before noon, which is not at all implausible.

Lance, it is entirely possible for LHO to have been standing where Rowland described and be blocked from BRW’s view as he sat where he said he ate his lunch and where his lunch remains were found and photographed. There was some stacks of boxes between the two positions. Some of them were high enough to block the view of LHO standing. All LHO needed to do was quietly get to that area and stand up without making enough noise for BRW to notice. The reason I think he might have risked exposing himself to view from outside (Rowland) is the commotion of the sirens, etc from the ambulance that happened at that particular time. LHO might have thought that it might have been the motorcade approaching.

I satisfied myself that the stacks of boxes blocked the view from BRW’s location by using my computer 3D model. I posted some images of this and those images at least quieted the arguments from one of the naysayers at that time. I will post some of them again if I can find them.

[Lance Payette]

Lance, it is entirely possible for LHO to have been standing where Rowland described and be blocked from BRW’s view as he sat where he said he ate his lunch and where his lunch remains were found and photographed. There was some stacks of boxes between the two positions. Some of them were high enough to block the view of LHO standing. All LHO needed to do was quietly get to that area and stand up without making enough noise for BRW to notice. The reason I think he might have risked exposing himself to view from outside (Rowland) is the commotion of the sirens, etc from the ambulance that happened at that particular time. LHO might have thought that it might have been the motorcade approaching.

I satisfied myself that the stacks of boxes blocked the view from BRW’s location by using my computer 3D model. I posted some images of this and those images at least quieted the arguments from one of the naysayers at that time. I will post some of them again if I can find them.

OK, good. The commotion from the sirens is a definite possibility. Or perhaps the rifle was actually stashed over on the west side Another possibility, which is what John seemed to be suggesting, is that Williams actually did see Oswald. The Rowland sighting sounds too much like Oswald to reject it completely. I have seen animations purporting to show that Williams would have had an unobstructed view of the location where Rowland saw Oswald, which is why I was having him leaving before Oswald emerged. I'd definitely be interested in your 3D model if you can locate it. A really accurate model or animation of what the sixth floor looked like on 11-22 seems difficult to find.