John Orr's analysis of the shots

[Jack Nessan]

Like they said, similar., whatever that means.

Here is what Donahue said about Posner's claim (all emphasis is original): 

2 Dear Mike: Sept. 11, 1996 

Concerning the case with the damaged lip. Posner claims it could have held a projectile at that time. Let me explain something about Posner. He will tell you anything to make a point. There were no shells dented in that manner by the HSCA. I will refer you to Professor Thompson's book, Six Seconds in Dallas, page 144, exhibit no. 543. Dr. Thompson discovered this case had been fired (dry fired) at least three times. He also tried to dent the cases by throwing them against a wall, to no avail. Just to prove this, I am enclosing a fired 6.5 mm Carcano case. Throw it around any way you wish and try to dent it. These cases are very strong. It could have only been dented by feeding the case into the breech of the gun with great force. This would be from the clip. . . . 

In closing, I have never seen a case dented like this. Dr. Thompson never saw any cases so deformed. So Posner says the HSCA had several empties dented like these??? Thanks for your interest—please keep in touch. Howard Donahue, Firearms Examiner

 

[Tim Nickerson]

As part of Josiah’s participation in the Life magazine photo shoot in 1967 Thompson was able to view the rifle and all the shell casings that were fired in or associated with LHO’s rifle during and since the assassination. 

Somehow this message seems to have gotten lost here, but the whole point Josiah made was CE 543 is the only shell casing he observed out of the 30+ shells that had been fired in the rifle since the assassination including CE 544, CE545, and CE 141, the unfired cartridge, that did not have the indentation on the side of the shell that the FBI identified as a “chamber mark” and as having been produced by the chamber of the rifle. The point of his observation is without the “chamber mark” on CE 543, it is proof it was not fired in the rifle. His point is not that CE 543 was not in the chamber of the rifle.

Page 145, in Six Seconds in Dallas, has the picture of the shells and the explanation. The one without the arrow is CE 543. There is an anomaly, most likely a burr from the reamer during manufacturing, in the chamber of the rifle that impresses an indentation on the shell casing when it is fired, or the chamber expanded due to heat. CE 543 lacks that indentation in the side of the shell casing and is the only shell, out of 30+ viewed by Josiah that had been in the rifle or fired by the FBI while testing the rifle, that lacks the indentation. All the others have the indentation to a varying degree.

 Additionally, CE 141, the unfired cartridge, has the indentation in the side of the shell casing, just from being introduced into an expanded chamber due to heat of the other cartridges having been fired. CE 543 by lacking the indentation or "chamber mark" indicates that it was never actually fired in the rifle.

Magazine follower marks will only be on the last shell in the clip. The last shell, in this instance is CE 141 the unfired cartridge, which was discovered still loaded in the chamber, not CE 543. CE 543 was known to be in the chamber of the rifle and dryfired but was not the last shell. on 11/22

Josiah clearly states based on his observation LHO only fired two shots not three, that is the whole point he was trying to make.

I'm really having trouble understanding that at all. Maybe I need more vodka. Or maybe someone else could put it in a way that it would make sense to me. Could you link to any FBI document that reports that they identified  a “chamber mark” on CE-544 and CE-545 but failed to find it on CE-543? In the meantime, I'll read page 145 of Six Seconds in Dallas and drink some more vodka.

[Tim Nickerson]

As part of Josiah’s participation in the Life magazine photo shoot in 1967 Thompson was able to view the rifle and all the shell casings that were fired in or associated with LHO’s rifle during and since the assassination. 

Somehow this message seems to have gotten lost here, but the whole point Josiah made was CE 543 is the only shell casing he observed out of the 30+ shells that had been fired in the rifle since the assassination including CE 544, CE545, and CE 141, the unfired cartridge, that did not have the indentation on the side of the shell that the FBI identified as a “chamber mark” and as having been produced by the chamber of the rifle. The point of his observation is without the “chamber mark” on CE 543, it is proof it was not fired in the rifle. His point is not that CE 543 was not in the chamber of the rifle.

Page 145, in Six Seconds in Dallas, has the picture of the shells and the explanation. The one without the arrow is CE 543. There is an anomaly, most likely a burr from the reamer during manufacturing, in the chamber of the rifle that impresses an indentation on the shell casing when it is fired, or the chamber expanded due to heat. CE 543 lacks that indentation in the side of the shell casing and is the only shell, out of 30+ viewed by Josiah that had been in the rifle or fired by the FBI while testing the rifle, that lacks the indentation. All the others have the indentation to a varying degree.

 Additionally, CE 141, the unfired cartridge, has the indentation in the side of the shell casing, just from being introduced into an expanded chamber due to heat of the other cartridges having been fired. CE 543 by lacking the indentation or "chamber mark" indicates that it was never actually fired in the rifle.

Magazine follower marks will only be on the last shell in the clip. The last shell, in this instance is CE 141 the unfired cartridge, which was discovered still loaded in the chamber, not CE 543. CE 543 was known to be in the chamber of the rifle and dryfired but was not the last shell. on 11/22

Josiah clearly states based on his observation LHO only fired two shots not three, that is the whole point he was trying to make.

From page 145:

Of all the various marks discovered on this case, only one set links it to Oswald's rifle, and this set was identified as having  come from the magazine follower.

As I've already shown you, that is false.

Yet the magazine follower marks only the last cartridge in the clip, a position that must have been occupied on November 22 not by the dented case but by the live round subsequently found in the chamber. Thus, unlike the  other two cases that bear marks from the chamber and bolt of Oswald's rifle, the only mark borne by  the dented case, linking it to Oswald's rifle, could not  have been incurred on November 22.

CE-543 contains marks from the bolt.

Mr. FRAZIER - I am sorry--yes, 543, 544, and 545. These three cartridge cases were placed one at a time on the comparison microscope, and the surfaces having the breech-face marks or the bolt marks were compared with those on the test cartridge cases, Exhibit 557. As a result of comparing the pattern of microscopic markings on the test cartridge cases and those marks on Exhibits 543, 544, and 545, both of the face of the bolt and the firing pin, I concluded that these three had been fired in this particular weapon.

What was Thompson smoking back then? The dent in CE-543 that he points to on page 145 was the dent that was duplicated by the HSCA firearms panel when ejecting expended shells from CE-139.

[Jarrett Smith]

As with virtually all areas of Weirdness in which I am deeply steeped, including religion, the more I know the less sure I am.

With the JFKA, there is the physical aspect of Dealey Plaza. I lean toward the LN narrative, either the two- or three-shot variety. I recall when I got into guns back in the 1970s, the importance of not snapping the trigger without an empty shell in the chamber was EMPHASIZED as though it were critical. If Oswald just grabbed his guns as they were, which I believe he did, it's possible there was a dry firing round in both the Carcano and the revolver. That said, some of what occurred (yes, including the SBT) is difficult to accept.

Then there is the Oswald aspect. I think I know him as well as anyone else in the JFKA community, and the whole thing is a very large puzzle to me. Why he decided to do this, what he was attempting to do after he did it, and how he remained so stoic after having done it, are to me very large mysteries. Hence the very different, cardboard cutout Oswalds that we see plugged into the different conspiracy theories only because he can't be ignored.

Then we have the added complexity that JFK was hated by so many diverse people and groups, and so many stood to benefit from his death, that the involvement of at least some of them seems almost inevitable. Some of them, such as the Mafia, had FAR better motives than did Oswald, and a hit in Dealey Plaza would have been business as usual.

To me, it's like trying to assemble a coherent picture when you've been given pieces from four different jigsaw puzzles - damn difficult. The easiest way out is to accept the LN narrative and chalk up Oswald to an unsolvable mystery - but, alas for me, the unsolvable mystery of Oswald is the most interesting part of the whole thing. That's my real quest: How do we explain Oswald in a convincing way?

I read about this case off and on for years and I'm 100% certain Marcello had JFK killed. You got Oswald in New Orleans with Bannister, Ferrie, Shaw who all had connections to Marcello. Joseph Milteer knew how they were going to kill Kennedy and had connections with Marcello. Ruby is the icing on the cake.

[Jack Nessan]

From page 145:

Of all the various marks discovered on this case, only one set links it to Oswald's rifle, and this set was identified as having  come from the magazine follower.


As I've already shown you, that is false.

Yet the magazine follower marks only the last cartridge in the clip, a position that must have been occupied on November 22 not by the dented case but by the live round subsequently found in the chamber. Thus, unlike the  other two cases that bear marks from the chamber and bolt of Oswald's rifle, the only mark borne by  the dented case, linking it to Oswald's rifle, could not  have been incurred on November 22.

CE-543 contains marks from the bolt.

Mr. FRAZIER - I am sorry--yes, 543, 544, and 545. These three cartridge cases were placed one at a time on the comparison microscope, and the surfaces having the breech-face marks or the bolt marks were compared with those on the test cartridge cases, Exhibit 557. As a result of comparing the pattern of microscopic markings on the test cartridge cases and those marks on Exhibits 543, 544, and 545, both of the face of the bolt and the firing pin, I concluded that these three had been fired in this particular weapon.

What was Thompson smoking back then? The dent in CE-543 that he points to on page 145 was the dent that was duplicated by the HSCA firearms panel when ejecting expended shells from CE-139.

As I've already shown you, that is false.

Josiah is 100% correct and you are 100% wrong. There is a difference between being matched to the bolt and matched to the rifle. He obviously knows that. The bolt can be placed in different rifles. The magazine follower and chamber are basically unique to that rifle. Those rifles were repaired out of spare parts, head spaced and shipped. That bolt could be placed in a different rifle and checked for head spacing, or not, and it will function. Does that still satisfy your’s and the firearms expert's definition of LHO’s rifle because the bolt markings match the shells? They are speaking in general terms, and you are just misunderstanding their intent.

What was Thompson smoking back then? The dent in CE-543 that he points to on page 145 was the dent that was duplicated by the HSCA firearms panel when ejecting expended shells from CE-139.

The HSCA never duplicated anything. What you have stated and shown proves that.

There is not an arrow pointing to the indentation that Josiah is referencing because CE 543 does not have that indentation on the side of the shell.  The lip indentation is not what he is referencing. 

He is smoking something because you do not understand his observation and why it is so important? Is all of this because you want three shots and not two? Your objections have zero to do with his observation. Absolutely nothing.

[Tim Nickerson]

As I've already shown you, that is false.

Josiah is 100% correct and you are 100% wrong. There is a difference between being matched to the bolt and matched to the rifle. He obviously knows that. The bolt can be placed in different rifles. The magazine follower and chamber are basically unique to that rifle. Those rifles were repaired out of spare parts, head spaced and shipped. That bolt could be placed in a different rifle and checked for head spacing, or not, and it will function. Does that still satisfy your’s and the firearms expert's definition of LHO’s rifle because the bolt markings match the shells? They are speaking in general terms, and you are just misunderstanding their intent.

What was Thompson smoking back then? The dent in CE-543 that he points to on page 145 was the dent that was duplicated by the HSCA firearms panel when ejecting expended shells from CE-139.

The HSCA never duplicated anything. What you have stated and shown proves that.

There is not an arrow pointing to the indentation that Josiah is referencing because CE 543 does not have that indentation on the side of the shell.  The lip indentation is not what he is referencing. 

He is smoking something because you do not understand his observation and why it is so important? Is all of this because you want three shots and not two? Your objections have zero to do with his observation. Absolutely nothing.

WOW! Just WOW!. The magazine follower and magazine can also be replaced. They could be placed in a different Carcano. CE-543 was positively matched to LHO's rifle by the bolt markings on it.  I am not misunderstanding Frazier at all. Thompson falsely claimed that the only mark borne by the dented case, linking it to Oswald's rifle, could not have been incurred on November 22.

The lip indentation is what Thompson was referring to. That indentation was duplicated by the HSCA firearms panel during their test-firing of Oswald's rifle. There was no other indention on CE-143. You made one up.

Three shots were fired. Your two shots scenario is loopy. It is contradicted by the evidence.

[Jarrett Smith]

WOW! Just WOW!. The magazine follower and magazine can also be replaced. They could be placed in a different Carcano. CE-543 was positively matched to LHO's rifle by the bolt markings on it.  I am not misunderstanding Frazier at all. Thompson falsely claimed that the only mark borne by the dented case, linking it to Oswald's rifle, could not have been incurred on November 22.

The lip indentation is what Thompson was referring to. That indentation was duplicated by the HSCA firearms panel during their test-firing of Oswald's rifle. There was no other indention on CE-143. You made one up.

Three shots were fired. Your two shots scenario is loopy. It is contradicted by the evidence.

Does that count the shot at Z-157?

[Jack Nessan]

WOW! Just WOW!. The magazine follower and magazine can also be replaced. They could be placed in a different Carcano. CE-543 was positively matched to LHO's rifle by the bolt markings on it.  I am not misunderstanding Frazier at all. Thompson falsely claimed that the only mark borne by the dented case, linking it to Oswald's rifle, could not have been incurred on November 22.

The lip indentation is what Thompson was referring to. That indentation was duplicated by the HSCA firearms panel during their test-firing of Oswald's rifle. There was no other indention on CE-143. You made one up.

Three shots were fired. Your two shots scenario is loopy. It is contradicted by the evidence.

You never read the Six Seconds in Dallas pages about what he wrote, or you would not be stating this:

"There was no other indention on CE-143. You made one up."


Because what you just stated, that is his whole point. It is either you never read it or you are afraid to admit what he observed. It appears you are having a panic attack over CE 543 and it having been used for dry firing.

There is great deal of evidence of only two shots. There is no evidence of three shots. Josiah Thompson’s observation is the final nail in the coffin of three shots. Maybe you are justified in having a panic attack. The one thing you can never say is you don’t know the answer, you just chose to pretend ignorance and ignore it.