The deformation of CE-399 adds credibility to the SBT

[Michael T. Griffith]

Sounds incredible but it really did happen. There has to be reasons it did take place.

Is there another case or is this the only one? If you know of another one cite it. 

Shooting a bullet full on into a wrist instead of yawing and tumbling produced what result?? Didn’t the bullet peel off the flesh along the rib bone while sliding sideways and then exited the chest sideways before it crashed into the wrist?

Think about what you're saying: If a bullet sliding sideways scraped a rib bone hard enough to destroy 5 inches of the bone, the bullet's lands and grooves would certainly suffer at least some deformation. Yet, CE 399's lands and grooves remained intact.

Beyond that, ask yourself, How would a bullet entering the back at a perpendicular angle manage to suddenly slide sideways along the horizontal plane of a rib bone? And how would such a bullet then exit the chest after traveling sideways along the horizontal plane of a rib bone for 5 inches? A modern guided missile would find it impossible to perform such a feat of sudden turns in such a comparatively short space.

CBS and Fackler knew that including cadaver rib bones in their SBT tests would produce deformed bullets, which is why they ensured that their tests did not include such bones. At least the CBS SBT test included a simulated human thigh, but not a single one of their bullets penetrated the thigh, and some of them didn't even leave the cadaver wrists, even though they didn't have to shatter 5 inches of rib bone before striking the wrists.

Again, in the WC's wound ballistics SBT test, even FMJ bullets fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.

[Jack Nessan]

Think about what you're saying: If a bullet sliding sideways scraped a rib bone hard enough to destroy 5 inches of the bone, the bullet's lands and grooves would certainly suffer at least some deformation. Yet, CE 399's lands and grooves remained intact.

Beyond that, ask yourself, How would a bullet entering the back at a perpendicular angle manage to suddenly slide sideways along the horizontal plane of a rib bone? And how would such a bullet then exit the chest after traveling sideways along the horizontal plane of a rib bone for 5 inches? A modern guided missile would find it impossible to perform such a feat of sudden turns in such a comparatively short space.

CBS and Fackler knew that including cadaver rib bones in their SBT tests would produce deformed bullets, which is why they ensured that their tests did not include such bones. At least the CBS SBT test included a simulated human thigh, but not a single one of their bullets penetrated the thigh, and some of them didn't even leave the cadaver wrists, even though they didn't have to shatter 5 inches of rib bone before striking the wrists.

Again, in the WC's wound ballistics SBT test, even FMJ bullets fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.

So, you are thinking if LHO had been in a slightly different location, then the different bullet’s trajectory through JFK’s neck would have placed the bullet striking JBC in a different location and resulting in striking a much thicker rib bone than the thin fifth rib and changing the resulting damage to the bullet?

The bullet exiting JBC’s chest relatively intact is not your issue? Your thinking a jacketed metal bullet should have the identifying marks wiped clean while sliding along soft bone?  The bullet then proceeded to the wrist at a much-reduced speed. It still had enough momentum to pass through the wrist again at an angle or even backwards and then barely embedded itself in his thigh. You have a problem with this why? How should the bullet have looked?

Your only issue with this is how the bullet looked, even though it is obviously deformed?

The biggest problem with this whole train of thought is when conducting tests how do you fire a bullet out of a barrel of a rifle at a reduced velocity and also sideways or various angles to boot to be able to duplicate the deformation of the bullet along with the various injuries sustained? 

[Michael T. Griffith]

So, you are thinking if LHO had been in a slightly different location, then the different bullet’s trajectory through JFK’s neck would have placed the bullet striking JBC in a different location and resulting in striking a much thicker rib bone than the thin fifth rib and changing the resulting damage to the bullet?

No bullet exited JFK's throat. We know that because there was no hole through JFK's tie. No bullet exiting the shirt slits could have missed tearing through the middle of the bottom part of the tie knot, and no bullet could have magically weaved around the body of the knot to nick the top of the knot near the knot's left edge. That is Alice in Wonderland material.

We also know that no bullet exited the slits. Three Parkland doctors confirmed that the throat wound was above the collar/tie, so the slits could not have been the exit point in the shirt for a bullet exiting the throat wound. Also, no fabric was missing from the slits, and no metallic traces were found them. One of the Parkland nurses confirmed that the nurses made the slits, which explains why the jagged edges of a sharp scalpel can be seen in the slits under high magnification, as confirmed by Weisberg and then by Mantik.

The 2023 Knott Laboratory SBT trajectory analysis, the most sophisticated SBT analysis ever done, proves the SBT is impossible.

Are you familiar with any of the considerable evidence, including new evidence developed by Barry Ernest, that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting but was downstairs eating lunch and watching the motorcade, just as he told the police? 

The bullet exiting JBC’s chest relatively intact is not your issue? Your thinking a jacketed metal bullet should have the identifying marks wiped clean while sliding along soft bone?  The bullet then proceeded to the wrist at a much-reduced speed. It still had enough momentum to pass through the wrist again at an angle or even backwards and then barely embedded itself in his thigh. You have a problem with this why? How should the bullet have looked?

Did you simply forget the facts I've pointed out in my previous four replies when you wrote this? Every single SBT wound ballistics test has failed to duplicate the SBT, either because they failed to simulate key parts of the bullet's alleged journey or because the bullets emerged much more deformed than CE 399. Furthermore, no one has yet produced a single documented forensic case where a bullet did the damage attributed to CE 399 and emerged in the same condition.

Your only issue with this is how the bullet looked, even though it is obviously deformed?

Seriously? Please re-read my previous four replies. CE 399 is only slightly deformed at its base. Its nose is pristine. Its lands and grooves are intact. It is missing only 3-4 grains of its substance. Deep down, somewhere in your mind, you must know that no bullet could emerge in this condition after penetrating seven layers of skin, smashing 5 inches of rib bone, and shattering a radius bone.

The biggest problem with this whole train of thought is when conducting tests how do you fire a bullet out of a barrel of a rifle at a reduced velocity and also sideways or various angles to boot to be able to duplicate the deformation of the bullet along with the various injuries sustained?

Again, did you simply forget the facts I've presented in my previous replies when you wrote your response? You simply refuse to consider cold hard facts that destroy your SBT fantasy.

[Zeon Mason]

So if CE 399 is not the bullet that hit  both JFK and JC per what appears to be happening in the Z film (fromZ224 to Z230)  then the bullet must have been another bullet fired from some other rifle than an MC rifle.

Other than those 3 shells found in the SN which are supposedly fired from the MC rifle that was found on the 6th floor TSBD,  there’s really no  evidence that any MC bullet actually hit JFK or JC is there?

Has it been established beyond reasonable doubt that the trail of very small fragments in the JFK lateral skull X-ray are MC bullet fragments?

And since for some reason no photos were taken of several larger size fragments said to be found in the JFK limo on the floorboard as they were laying before they were picked up, introduces some doubt if those fragments were ever actually there. Chain of custody problem here.

Since there’s the premise that a professional sniper would not likely choose to shoot from a high window at a moving target when he could have chosen a much easier place to take a shot at a stationary JFK giving a speech, then the CT is left with question why did the conspirator shooter(s) choose the more difficult TSBD high 6th floor moving target scenario?

The answer would seem to be  that it was because Oswald was chosen as a patsy for whatever reason. Thus the pro had to do the shooting from a floor of TSBD which was available, which turned out to be the 6th floor due to absence of TSBD employees ( except for the unexpected Bonnie Ray Williams at around 12:15)

The pro snipers primary mission though was to make sure JFK was terminated, so he chose his own favorite precision rifle, while preplanting the MC rifle, since this moving target scenario was difficult  enough even for a precision rifle expert, let alone if he were to use an unfamiliar POS rifle with poor quality scope.

The pro sniper fired 2 shots that hit and fired a 3rd shot just after Z313 while keeping his rifle barrel stuck out the window several seconds . He did that to maximize the rifle being seen in the SE 6th floor window of TSBD, where the sniper would leave 3 shells that previously had been fired from the MC rifle that he had preplanted in the boxes near the rear staircase.

All this,  because for whatever reason, whether due to contract or due to  personal vendetta, the professional conspirator gunmans secondary objective was to set to up Oswald as the suspect assassin.

That’s all folks

[Jack Nessan]

No bullet exited JFK's throat. We know that because there was no hole through JFK's tie. No bullet exiting the shirt slits could have missed tearing through the middle of the bottom part of the tie knot, and no bullet could have magically weaved around the body of the knot to nick the top of the knot near the knot's left edge. That is Alice in Wonderland material.

We also know that no bullet exited the slits. Three Parkland doctors confirmed that the throat wound was above the collar/tie, so the slits could not have been the exit point in the shirt for a bullet exiting the throat wound. Also, no fabric was missing from the slits, and no metallic traces were found them. One of the Parkland nurses confirmed that the nurses made the slits, which explains why the jagged edges of a sharp scalpel can be seen in the slits under high magnification, as confirmed by Weisberg and then by Mantik.

The 2023 Knott Laboratory SBT trajectory analysis, the most sophisticated SBT analysis ever done, proves the SBT is impossible.

Are you familiar with any of the considerable evidence, including new evidence developed by Barry Ernest, that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting but was downstairs eating lunch and watching the motorcade, just as he told the police? 

Did you simply forget the facts I've pointed out in my previous four replies when you wrote this? Every single SBT wound ballistics test has failed to duplicate the SBT, either because they failed to simulate key parts of the bullet's alleged journey or because the bullets emerged much more deformed than CE 399. Furthermore, no one has yet produced a single documented forensic case where a bullet did the damage attributed to CE 399 and emerged in the same condition.

Seriously? Please re-read my previous four replies. CE 399 is only slightly deformed at its base. Its nose is pristine. Its lands and grooves are intact. It is missing only 3-4 grains of its substance. Deep down, somewhere in your mind, you must know that no bullet could emerge in this condition after penetrating seven layers of skin, smashing 5 inches of rib bone, and shattering a radius bone.

Again, did you simply forget the facts I've presented in my previous replies when you wrote your response? You simply refuse to consider cold hard facts that destroy your SBT fantasy.

Two entrance wounds and no exit wounds. Seems like quite a problem given the xray results produced not a single bullet was present. Those ice bullets are everywhere in your stories. Do you have a patent on them?

Knotts Lab of course. They would know.

Is Barry Ernest the latest dufus clown expert wannebe?

Except for all the deformities the bullet is pristine? What HSCA forensics expert stated that was like being a little pregnant. Right, it was Dr Baden

Dr. BADEN. Yes, sir. Absolutely, but with qualification . We on the medical panel have certain problems, as have other doctors in the past, in evaluating the injuries produced by the so-called "pristine 308 bullet", which is a media term that is inaccurate: it is like being a little bit pregnant-it is either pristine or it is not pristine. This is a damaged bullet and this is not a pristine bullet. This is a bullet that is deformed; it would be very difficult to take a hammer and flatten it to the degree that this is flattened. This is a partially deformed bullet with a heavy jacket. The problem is that although in New York City we see more than 1,000 gunshot wound deaths a year, in a civilian population it is most unusual to encounter military ammunition; and in military practice where people are killed by rifle bullets, autopsies, and follow-up correlations are not performed as in the civilian death situation. Very few people, if any, have had autopsy experience with the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 millimeter ammunition in a civilian population.

[Tim Nickerson]

The 2023 Knott Laboratory SBT trajectory analysis, the most sophisticated SBT analysis ever done, proves the SBT is impossible.

Where can one read the Knott study? Not a synopsis of the study or a video synopsis of it, but the actual full study itself. What generation copy, or copies, of the Zapruder film did they use? Did they use the Betzner and Willis photos? If so, what generation copies were they? How far inboard of JFK did they determine Connally to be? Did they factor in the right rotation of Connally when concluding that the SBT could not work?

[Royell Storing]

Two entrance wounds and no exit wounds. Seems like quite a problem given the xray results produced not a single bullet was present. Those ice bullets are everywhere in your stories. Do you have a patent on them?

Knotts Lab of course. They would know.

Is Barry Ernest the latest dufus clown expert wannebe?

Except for all the deformities the bullet is pristine? What HSCA forensics expert stated that was like being a little pregnant. Right, it was Dr Baden

Dr. BADEN. Yes, sir. Absolutely, but with qualification . We on the medical panel have certain problems, as have other doctors in the past, in evaluating the injuries produced by the so-called "pristine 308 bullet", which is a media term that is inaccurate: it is like being a little bit pregnant-it is either pristine or it is not pristine. This is a damaged bullet and this is not a pristine bullet. This is a bullet that is deformed; it would be very difficult to take a hammer and flatten it to the degree that this is flattened. This is a partially deformed bullet with a heavy jacket. The problem is that although in New York City we see more than 1,000 gunshot wound deaths a year, in a civilian population it is most unusual to encounter military ammunition; and in military practice where people are killed by rifle bullets, autopsies, and follow-up correlations are not performed as in the civilian death situation. Very few people, if any, have had autopsy experience with the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 millimeter ammunition in a civilian population.

  So we have a Carcano Bullet breaking bones and inflicting multiple wounds that emerges close to Pristine, vs another Carcano Bullet that explodes a head on contact and disintegrates?  Not consistent by a long shot.   

[John Mytton]

  So we have a Carcano Bullet breaking bones and inflicting multiple wounds that emerges close to Pristine, vs another Carcano Bullet that explodes a head on contact and disintegrates?  Not consistent by a long shot.

You've been repeatedly schooled on this!

1) CE 399 was not pristine but was flattened on one side, totally consistent with being slowed by inches of only flesh and then tumbling and striking Connally's ribs side on.



and then further slowed to only fracture Connally's wrist bone instead of pulverizing it, and CE399 left lead fragments indicating that the bullet struck from an angle.



2) When a test Carcano bullet was fired into a skull, two fragments were produced and were similar to the two fragments recovered in the Limo, and both fragments were exclusively matched forensically to Oswald's rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a case containing bullet fragments marked Commission Exhibit 857 and ask if you have ever seen those fragments before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And under what circumstances have you viewed those before, please?
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment. We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you two fragments designated as Commission Exhibits 567 and 579 heretofore identified as having been found on the front seat of the President's car on November 22, 1963, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to examine those before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to compare those to the two fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 857?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did that comparison show?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.





JohnM