The deformation of CE-399 adds credibility to the SBT

[Tom Graves]

Comrade Griffith posted:

To get a better idea of just how minimally CE 399 was damaged during its alleged journey, consider the fact that the bullet originally weighed 161 grains and that it weighed 158.6 grains when it was entered into evidence, a loss of only 2.4 grains of its substance. To put it another way, after supposedly tearing through seven layers of human skin, tearing through a human neck, tearing through a human chest, smashing 5 inches of rib bone, and shattering the very hard right distal radius bone, this magic bullet lost only 1.5% of its substance.

Dear Comrade Griffith,

I asked Grok:

"Is it fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company military surplus 6.5 x 52 mm Carcano rounds could have varied by a grain or two? In which year were Oswald's rounds manufactured, anyway?"

Grok: Weight Variation: Yes, it is fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company (WCC) 6.5×52mm Carcano military surplus rounds could have varied by a grain or two due to manufacturing tolerances typical of ammunition from that era. While no specific documentation confirms weight variation for the exact lot used by Lee Harvey Oswald, minor variances (e.g., 1-2 grains) are common in mass-produced military ammunition due to factors like powder consistency, bullet molding, or quality control standards of the time. The standard bullet weight for these full metal jacket rounds is consistently cited as 160 grains in historical and ballistic records.Year of Manufacture: The exact year of manufacture for the specific WCC 6.5×52mm Carcano rounds used by Oswald is not definitively stated in primary sources like the Warren Commission or FBI reports. However, these rounds were part of a surplus batch produced by WCC in the 1950s, likely between 1954 and 1955, for use in U.S.-supplied Carcano rifles. This is based on information from firearms historians and surplus ammunition analyses, which note that WCC manufactured these rounds under contract for the U.S. government, primarily for export or military aid. The rounds were later sold as surplus through mail-order companies like Klein’s Sporting Goods, from which Oswald purchased his rifle and ammunition in 1963. No precise lot number or manufacturing date beyond this range is provided in available records.

In addition, CE 399's lands and grooves are intact and its only deformation is a modest deformation at its base, which isn't even apparent unless you view the bullet from its bottom. Not a single bullet in any of the SBT wound ballistics tests that hit two bones or that traveled through 12 inches of gelatin and hit one bone or that traveled through a goat carcass and broke a rib bone--not one of those bullets emerged with 98.5% of its substance, with its lands and grooves intact, and with only minimal deformation at its base. Indeed, as mentioned in previous replies, in the WC's SBT test, even FMJ bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation than CE 399. And, needless to say, no one has yet found a single case in forensic records of a bullet emerging in such nearly pristine condition after doing damage comparable to that of CE 399. When Dr. Cyril Wecht challenged the eight other members of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel to produce one such case, they could not do so.

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Did they try firing them through a living man's lower neck/upper back (or through a corpse or a block of ballistics gel in case there were no volunteers) in such a way that the bullet would then travel about three feet and penetrate another living man's (or corpse's) chest from back-to-front, ride along (and smash) his fifth rib in the process, exit below his nipple, and then penetrate his wrist butt-end-first and strike in the living man (or corpse) the only hard bone that CE-399 is known to have hit in either JFK or JBC, the volunteer's (or corpse's) radial bone, while tumbling and/or twirling?

Tangentially (pardon the pun), are you aware of the fact that CE-399 ended up with a longitudinal twist?

How do you suppose that happened?

Do you postulate that it was manufactured by Chubby Checker?

[Michael T. Griffith]

Comrade Griffith posted:

Dear Comrade Griffith,

I asked Grok:

"Is it fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company military surplus 6.5 x 52 mm Carcano rounds could have varied by a grain or two? In which year were Oswald's rounds manufactured, anyway?"

Grok: Weight Variation: Yes, it is fair to say that the weight of 1960s Western Cartridge Company (WCC) 6.5×52mm Carcano military surplus rounds could have varied by a grain or two due to manufacturing tolerances typical of ammunition from that era. While no specific documentation confirms weight variation for the exact lot used by Lee Harvey Oswald, minor variances (e.g., 1-2 grains) are common in mass-produced military ammunition due to factors like powder consistency, bullet molding, or quality control standards of the time. The standard bullet weight for these full metal jacket rounds is consistently cited as 160 grains in historical and ballistic records.Year of Manufacture: The exact year of manufacture for the specific WCC 6.5×52mm Carcano rounds used by Oswald is not definitively stated in primary sources like the Warren Commission or FBI reports. However, these rounds were part of a surplus batch produced by WCC in the 1950s, likely between 1954 and 1955, for use in U.S.-supplied Carcano rifles. This is based on information from firearms historians and surplus ammunition analyses, which note that WCC manufactured these rounds under contract for the U.S. government, primarily for export or military aid. The rounds were later sold as surplus through mail-order companies like Klein’s Sporting Goods, from which Oswald purchased his rifle and ammunition in 1963. No precise lot number or manufacturing date beyond this range is provided in available records.

Umm, okay. So the bullet either lost no substance or lost a mere 4-5 grains instead of 2.4 grains. No SBT test bullet or any bullet from a verified forensic case lost so little substance after doing so much damage.

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Did they try firing them through a living man's lower neck/upper back (or through a corpse or a block of ballistics gel in case there were no volunteers) in such a way that the bullet would then travel about three feet and penetrate another living man's (or corpse's) chest from back-to-front, ride along (and smash) his fifth rib in the process, exit below his nipple, and then penetrate his wrist butt-end-first and strike in the living man (or corpse) the only hard bone that CE-399 is known to have hit in either JFK or JBC, the volunteer's (or corpse's) radial bone, while tumbling and/or twirling?

Tangentially (pardon the pun), are you aware of the fact that CE-399 ended up with a longitudinal twist? How do you suppose that happened?

No! I had no idea! The longitudinal twist is very slight and is at the base, as is the slight deformation. I know your mind seems unwilling to process this fact, but I'll repeat it anyway: bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation as CE 399.

I see you're again arguing that wound ballistics tests are worthless unless the test bullets exactly duplicate the angle and speed of the original missile and exactly duplicate the original target, which is just ridiculous and amateurish.

I see you're still refusing to face the fact that there was no hole in the tie but only a nick on the top of the tie know, which proves that no bullet exited the shirt slits, which in turn destroys the SBT.

I'm guessing you won't read this, but here's an article by John Hunt, one of the most careful and respected researchers in the community, on CE 399 and the SBT:

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm

[Tom Graves]

Bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or more deformation as CE-399.

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Round-nosed fmj 6.5mm Carcano bullets that are fired at a velocity of more than 1,300 mph into cotton wadding evidently experience much more intense resistance while trying to pass through a few inches of wad than they do when passing through 36 inches of pine wood completely undamaged, as can be seen by watching the PBS NOVA program, "Cold Case JFK."

Evidently, when CE-399 passed through JFK's neck and JBC's upper torso and struck the radial bone in his wrist, it experienced less resistance overall than did CE-399, until, that is, CE-399 "kissed" said radial bone butt-end-first while yawing and/or tumbling.

I see you're again arguing that wound ballistics tests are worthless unless the test bullets exactly duplicate the angle and speed of the original missile and exactly duplicate the original target, which is just ridiculous and amateurish.

Dear Comrade Griffith,

According to Grok, ballistics tests are useful for the following purposes:

Ballistics tests are conducted for several key reasons:

1. Crime Scene Investigation: To match bullets or cartridge cases found at a crime scene to a specific firearm, aiding in forensic analysis and suspect identification.

2. Firearm Identification: To determine if a specific gun was used in a crime by analyzing ballistic evidence like bullet markings or casings.

3. Weapon Performance Evaluation: To assess the accuracy, reliability, and effectiveness of firearms and ammunition under various conditions.

4. Research and Development: To improve the design of firearms, ammunition, or protective gear like body armor by studying ballistic behavior.

5. Safety Testing: To evaluate potential risks, such as misfires, malfunctions, or excessive penetration, ensuring user safety.

6. Legal and Regulatory Compliance: To verify that firearms and ammunition meet legal standards and regulations for manufacturing or use.

7. Quality Control: For manufacturers to ensure firearms and ammunition meet consistent performance and safety standards before distribution.


My comment:

Note that "trying to determine if a high-velocity yawing/tumbling bullet can cause a certain kind of wound, and, if so, exactly what kind of deformation it would sustain" isn't mentioned.

Maybe because it would be a fool's errand to attempt to determine with exactitude any (much less all) of the multitudinous variables involved?

D'oh!

[Michael T. Griffith]

It is worth noting that in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test, the FMJ bullet that hit rib bone sideways emerged noticeably more deformed than CE 399, even though it did not destroy as much rib bone as CE 399 allegedly did. See Figure 4 in John Hunt's superb article "Breakability: CE-399 and the Diminishing Velocity Theory":

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm

Hunt points out that the Discovery Channel SBT test proves that even if the bullet that hit Connally's rib hit it traveling sideways, this would still have caused much more deformation than we see in CE 399:

S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n attached a lot of weight to the conclusion that a yawing bullet would
shed enough kinetic energy such that it struck Connally’s rib only slightly above its own
sideways impact deformation velocity. Unfortunately for S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n, even
injecting the Magic Bullet with theoretical steroids can not rehabilitate the SBT, for the
Discovery Channel “Single Bullet” did impact the “Connally” trunk while severely yawed
and was still grossly deformed upon impact with the rib.

Hunt also observes that in the WC's wound ballistics test, conducted at the Edgewood Arsenal's Biophysics Division, a bullet that passed through a goat carcass and hit a goat rib emerged much more deformed than CE 399:

The fact is that the bullet that most closely duplicated the Connally wounding in the
Biophysics goat tests look just like the Discovery Channel–smashed. And that bullet
struck the goat rib a glancing blow.

Figure 7 in Hunt's article shows CE 399 with two views of the goat-test bullet.

Finally, CE 572 shows the two bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test. One bullet shows the same amount of deformation as CE 399, while the other bullet shows more deformation than CE 399. To see this clearly, look at JFK Exhibit F-294 (see link below), which Dr. Cyril Wecht presented during his HSCA testimony. F-294 shows CE 399 beside the two CE 572 bullets, CE 583, and CE 856.

I also recommend looking at F-102 (see link below), which shows CE 399 from the side and from the bottom, to see just how minimally/slightly CE 399 was deformed. Recall that even the FBI's Robert Frazier said CE 399 was only "slightly[/i] flattened."

Here's a link to Dr. Wecht's testimony, which includes F-294 and F-102:

https://share.google/DVlT9F239tY7dOt9c

Dr. Wecht pointed out that the CE 572 bullets were traveling at the same speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling before it allegedly hit JFK, and that CE 853, the goat-carcass bullet, was traveling at a speed very close to the speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling if it had transited JFK's neck before tearing through Connally's chest:

With regard to Commission Exhibit 572, the two bullets fired in the cotton wadding, that
muzzle velocity was exactly the same as 399 initially, and CE 853, through the carcass
of a goat, would have been reduced, it is estimated, about one-tenth, 10 percent of the
original velocity, not terribly substantial. (1 HSCA 353)

[Michael T. Griffith]

Just bumping the information below because it is further proof that the SBT is fiction, and because it provides another example of a pro-WC thread that has ended up presenting facts that WC apologists cannot explain.

It is worth noting that in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test, the FMJ bullet that hit rib bone sideways emerged noticeably more deformed than CE 399, even though it did not destroy as much rib bone as CE 399 allegedly did. See Figure 4 in John Hunt's superb article "Breakability: CE-399 and the Diminishing Velocity Theory":

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm

Hunt points out that the Discovery Channel SBT test proves that even if the bullet that hit Connally's rib hit it traveling sideways, this would still have caused much more deformation than we see in CE 399:

S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n attached a lot of weight to the conclusion that a yawing bullet would
shed enough kinetic energy such that it struck Connally’s rib only slightly above its own
sideways impact deformation velocity. Unfortunately for S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n, even
injecting the Magic Bullet with theoretical steroids can not rehabilitate the SBT, for the
Discovery Channel “Single Bullet” did impact the “Connally” trunk while severely yawed
and was still grossly deformed upon impact with the rib.

Hunt also observes that in the WC's wound ballistics test, conducted at the Edgewood Arsenal's Biophysics Division, a bullet that passed through a goat carcass and hit a goat rib emerged much more deformed than CE 399:

The fact is that the bullet that most closely duplicated the Connally wounding in the
Biophysics goat tests look just like the Discovery Channel–smashed. And that bullet
struck the goat rib a glancing blow.

Figure 7 in Hunt's article shows CE 399 with two views of the goat-test bullet.

Finally, CE 572 shows the two bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test. One bullet shows the same amount of deformation as CE 399, while the other bullet shows more deformation than CE 399. To see this clearly, look at JFK Exhibit F-294 (see link below), which Dr. Cyril Wecht presented during his HSCA testimony. F-294 shows CE 399 beside the two CE 572 bullets, CE 583, and CE 856.

I also recommend looking at F-102 (see link below), which shows CE 399 from the side and from the bottom, to see just how minimally/slightly CE 399 was deformed. Recall that even the FBI's Robert Frazier said CE 399 was only "slightly[/i] flattened."

Here's a link to Dr. Wecht's testimony, which includes F-294 and F-102:

https://share.google/DVlT9F239tY7dOt9c

Dr. Wecht pointed out that the CE 572 bullets were traveling at the same speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling before it allegedly hit JFK, and that CE 853, the goat-carcass bullet, was traveling at a speed very close to the speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling if it had transited JFK's neck before tearing through Connally's chest:

With regard to Commission Exhibit 572, the two bullets fired in the cotton wadding, that
muzzle velocity was exactly the same as 399 initially, and CE 853, through the carcass
of a goat, would have been reduced, it is estimated, about one-tenth, 10 percent of the
original velocity, not terribly substantial. (1 HSCA 353)

[Tim Nickerson]

It is worth noting that in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test, the FMJ bullet that hit rib bone sideways emerged noticeably more deformed than CE 399, even though it did not destroy as much rib bone as CE 399 allegedly did.

The bullet in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test struck two ribs, not just one.

Hunt also observes that in the WC's wound ballistics test, conducted at the Edgewood Arsenal's Biophysics Division, a bullet that passed through a goat carcass and hit a goat rib emerged much more deformed than CE 399:

The bullet struck the goat rib at a higher velocity than the bullet strike on Connally's rib.

Finally, CE 572 shows the two bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test. One bullet shows the same amount of deformation as CE 399, while the other bullet shows more deformation than CE 399. To see this clearly, look at JFK Exhibit F-294 (see link below), which Dr. Cyril Wecht presented during his HSCA testimony. F-294 shows CE 399 beside the two CE 572 bullets, CE 583, and CE 856.

I also recommend looking at F-102 (see link below), which shows CE 399 from the side and from the bottom, to see just how minimally/slightly CE 399 was deformed. Recall that even the FBI's Robert Frazier said CE 399 was only "slightly[/i] flattened."

Here's a link to Dr. Wecht's testimony, which includes F-294 and F-102:

https://share.google/DVlT9F239tY7dOt9c

Dr. Wecht pointed out that the CE 572 bullets were traveling at the same speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling before it allegedly hit JFK, and that CE 853, the goat-carcass bullet, was traveling at a speed very close to the speed at which CE 399 would have been traveling if it had transited JFK's neck before tearing through Connally's chest:

With regard to Commission Exhibit 572, the two bullets fired in the cotton wadding, that
muzzle velocity was exactly the same as 399 initially, and CE 853, through the carcass
of a goat, would have been reduced, it is estimated, about one-tenth, 10 percent of the
original velocity, not terribly substantial. (1 HSCA 353)

"Earlier, the FBI inadvertently proved that cotton waste, when compressed as it builds up on a penetrating bullet, is denser than soft tissue. They did this by firing WCC/MC bullets from the Oswald rifle into cotton waste at muzzle velocity. They were trying to recover undeformed bullets fired from the Oswald rifle. Such bullets were needed as ballistic standards with which to compare CE 399 and the fragments recovered from the floor of the limousine to determine whether they were fired from Oswald's weapon. The bullets they recovered in this manner were suitable as standards, but were deformed to a greater extent than CE 399. This point was missed entirely by Dr. Wecht in his HSCA testimony when he used the picture reproduced as figure 4 that contains those bullets. He claimed that the deformation in cotton waste proved that CE 399 did not smash the Governor's wrist since it would have been deformed more in the "hard bone". He considered the effect of strength and, perhaps, density of the target on deformation---but not the much greater effect of velocity." -- Larry Sturdivan, The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, pages 130 and 131.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472

[Michael T. Griffith]

The bullet in the Discovery Channel's wound ballistics test struck two ribs, not just one.

One, yes, but the Discovery Channel bullet did not smash 5 inches of rib bone, even though it hit two rib bones. You didn't bother to read Hunt's article, did you?

Two, CE 399 supposedly smashed 5 inches of rib bone and supposedly then smashed the radius bone, one of the densest bones in the body. Yet, it emerged visibly less damaged than the Discovery Channel bullet.

The bullet struck the goat rib at a higher velocity than the bullet strike on Connally's rib.

The velocity was not higher enough to make any substantive difference. Did you miss Dr. Wecht's point that CE 399's velocity would have only been reduced by about 10% after it allegedly exited JFK's throat? Plus, in the 1967 CBS SBT test, the FMJ bullets passed through 12 inches of ballistics gelatin before hitting cadaver wrist bones, and not one of them had enough energy to penetrate the simulated thigh--and in fact several of them failed to leave the cadaver wrist.

Why do you keep ignoring these facts? Do you get some sort of emotional comfort from believing in the SBT? Sorry, but sooner or later you're going to have to face that fact that every SBT wound ballistics test ever done has invalidated the SBT. You're also going to have to face that fact that JFK's tie alone--i.e., the fact that there was no hole through it--self-evidently destroys the SBT.

"Earlier, the FBI inadvertently proved that cotton waste, when compressed as it builds up on a penetrating bullet, is denser than soft tissue. They did this by firing WCC/MC bullets from the Oswald rifle into cotton waste at muzzle velocity. They were trying to recover undeformed bullets fired from the Oswald rifle. Such bullets were needed as ballistic standards with which to compare CE 399 and the fragments recovered from the floor of the limousine to determine whether they were fired from Oswald's weapon. The bullets they recovered in this manner were suitable as standards, but were deformed to a greater extent than CE 399. This point was missed entirely by Dr. Wecht in his HSCA testimony when he used the picture reproduced as figure 4 that contains those bullets. He claimed that the deformation in cotton waste proved that CE 399 did not smash the Governor's wrist since it would have been deformed more in the "hard bone". He considered the effect of strength and, perhaps, density of the target on deformation---but not the much greater effect of velocity." -- Larry Sturdivan, The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, pages 130 and 131.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472

I can't believe you didn't recognize the specious nature of S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n's argument here. Do you really believe that cotton wadding compressed by a bullet is denser than (1) three layers of human skin (the back and front of JFK's neck and Connally's back) and (2) at least 6 inches of muscle tissue (4 inches in JFK's neck and at least 2 inches between Connally's back wound and his fifth rib)? Do you really? Surely deep down you know this is utter nonsense. But S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n has to make this erroneous assumption because he admits that the two bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged more deformed than CE 399.

None other than Dr. Martin Fackler has observed that one layer of human skin has the approximate resistance strength of 4 inches of muscle tissue (https://www.patspeer.com/jahs-chapter-19). This means that three layers of human skin have the resistance strength of 12 inches of muscle tissue, which means that CE 399 would have had to pass through the equivalent of 18 inches of muscle tissue before it even hit the wrist (three layers of skin = 12 inches of muscle tissue, plus at least 6 inches of muscle tissue in JFK's neck and Connally's back). Do you really, deep down, believe that bullet-compressed cotton wadding in the WC's SBT test was denser than 18 inches of muscle tissue? Do you really?

And notice that S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n says nothing about Dr. Wecht's point regarding the goat-carcass bullet in the WC's SBT test. The bullet's velocity was virtually the same as CE 399's velocity would have been after allegedly exiting JFK's neck, because CE 399's velocity would have only been reduced by about 10% after supposedly exiting the neck. Furthermore, the goat-carcass bullet did less damage than CE 399 supposedly did in Connally's chest, yet it still emerged markedly more deformed than CE 399.

Clearly, you did not bother to read Hunt's article. He addresses S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n's many flawed arguments and shifting assumptions. Here's the link to Hunt's article again:

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm

Dr. Milton Helpern, one of the greatest forensic pathologists of the 20th century, who supervised over 10,000 gunshot-wound autopsies, noted that human skin is tough, elastic, and resistant, and that this was one of the reasons he did not buy the SBT:

I cannot accept the premise that this bullet [CE 399] thrashed around in all that bony tissue
and lost only 1.4 to 2.4 grains of its original weight. I cannot believe, either, that this bullet
is going to emerge . . . with its lands and grooves intact.

Mr. Specter and the Commission have asked too much from this bullet. You must remember
that next to bone, the skin offers offers the greatest resistance to a bullet in its course
through the body than any other kind of tissue. The energy of the bullet is sometimes so
spent that it can't quite get out through the final layer of skin, and it comes to rest just
beneath the outside layer of skin. If it does get through the skin, it may not
have enough energy to penetrate even an undershirt or a light cotton blouse. . . .

This single-bullet theory requires us to believe that this bullet went through seven layers
of skin—tough, elastic, resistant skin. . . . In addition to these seven layers of tough
human skin, this bullet [CE 399] passed through other layers of soft tissue; and
then these shattered bones!

I just can’t believe that this bullet had the force to do what Mr. Specter and the Commission
have demanded of it; and I don't think they have really stopped to think out carefully what
they have asked of this bullet for the simple reason that they still do not understand the
resistant nature of human skin to bullets. (Where Death Delights, pp. 62-63)