JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate

The deformation of CE-399 adds credibility to the SBT

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Michael T. Griffith:

--- Quote from: Tommy Shanks on August 26, 2025, 07:30:44 PM ---Would you have preferred the Warren Commission fire live ammunition into living human targets? Because that's the only possible way to "simulate key parts" of the bullet's path.
--- End quote ---


That is erroneous. I take it you haven't read my previous replies in this thread.


--- Quote from: Tommy Shanks on August 26, 2025, 07:30:44 PM ---I concur with other posters who keep asking you, apparently without a response, where all of your purported extra bullets went? Were they magically removed from Kennedy's body and/or Dealey Plaza and forever hidden away from any documentation? I find that to be absurd.
--- End quote ---

You find it to be absurd that criminals would remove evidence??? Do you have any idea how many cases police/federal officials have been caught discarding or destroying evidence, not to mention planting and altering evidence?

We know where some of the extra bullets went. One of them created the Aldredge curb scar, a long visible scar on the curb on the north side of Elm Street. Another one struck the pavement near the rear of the limo early in the shooting and kicked up debris and was seen by five witnesses. Another one struck the curb near James Tague and sent a fragment streaking toward him with enough velocity to cut his face. Another extra bullet was seen to dig a hole in the grass near a manhole cover about 350 feet down Elm Street, and local newspapers reported on that bullet strike.

For example, when the Fort Worth Star-Telegram published a photo of the hole in the grass, it included the following caption:

One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Kennedy
lies in the grass across Elm Street. . . .

The next day the Dallas Times Herald, in referring to the hole in the grass, reported:

Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime lab estimated the distance from
the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot where one of the bullets was recovered
at 100 yards.

Newsman Richard Dudman said the following about this miss and the recovered bullet in the 12/21/63 issue of the New Republic:

On the day the President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet].
A group of police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the
President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found another
bullet in the grass.

Another extra bullet was recovered from the limousine in DC on the night of the autopsy, as we now know from one of the doctors who attended the autopsy, Dr. James Young. For years, Dr. Young assumed the bullet was one of three shots allegedly fired by Oswald. When he later realized that the Warren Commission said nothing about it, he contacted Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford to inform them of the bullet's discovery and to find out why it was not discussed in the Warren Report.

Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in Dealey Plaza
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRwhDQ9HMydf5pICsHwgtkoNKw0YSO8T/view

Tom Graves:

--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on August 26, 2025, 04:40:16 PM ---Just to inject yet another reality check into this thread, CE 399's virtually pristine condition is one of the most powerful refutations of the SBT. CE 399 is barely deformed. It is slightly deformed at its base. Amazingly, its lands and grooves are intact. Its nose is intact, except for a tiny notch that was made when the FBI removed a tiny piece of the nose for testing purposes. In the WC's SBT wound ballistics test, bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same or greater deformation as CE 399. I have already covered the devastating results of other wound ballistics tests earlier in this thread. Suffice it to say that every single SBT test has either failed to simulate key parts of CE 399's alleged journey or has refuted the SBT.

--- End quote ---

Griffith,

How can you call a full metal jacket bullet that's longitudinally twisted, compressed at the base, flattened on one side over its rear 1/3 to 1/2, has lost up to 4 grains of its core, and is extruding said core from its you-know-what, "nearly pristine"?

Did your beloved tests involve 1) determining the precise trajectory and velocity of a round-nosed 160-grain Carcano bullet (which kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft) fired at that distance and from that elevation, and 2) determining as well the precise angle-of-incidence of a bullet with that trajectory when it hit JFK on that downward-sloping street and at that precise distance, and 3) firing a bullet with that same trajectory and angle of incidence and point of incidence through a block of ballistics gel or a live male's neck, 4) with another (largish) male or mannikin sitting in precisely the same position distance-wise, height-wise, and side-to-side-wise as JBC was sitting in relation to JFK, and 5) in precisely the same "pose" arms-and-hands-wise, as JBC was in when he was struck by the bullet (e.g., turned 30 to 35 degrees to his right; with his arms and hands "just so," etc., etc.)?

Even if you were to answer "yes" to all of the above questions, your beloved tests would still be invalid for the simple reason that there are so many other complicated physics and physiological factors to take into consideration for modeling a scenario in which a round-nosed 160-grain Carcano bullet that's travelling at approximately 2000 feet-per-second when it hits someone in the upper-back / lower-neck, passes through his neck without hitting bone, penetrates another person's back near his right armpit (while he's sitting to the left of and lower than the first person and is turned 30-to-35 degrees to his right), smashes this second person's fifth rib, exits his chest, enters his wrist backwards, side-swipes his radial bone with its rear 1/2 or so while twirling, exits his wrist, and shallowly penetrates his left thigh.

In other words, given the plethora of above variables and the initial high velocities (and eventual low velocities) involved, your beloved tests' inability to produce a bullet even remotely like CE-399 should have been expected . . . and if it had occurred, would have been a doggone miracle.

D'oh!

Michael T. Griffith:
I find it revealing that lone-gunman theorists simply cannot face the fact that even in SBT tests where the FMJ bullets did most of the same damage attributed to CE 399, the bullets emerged more deformed than CE 399, in addition to the fact that no one has yet found a forensic case where a bullet performed the same feat alleged for CE 399 and emerged with minimal deformity.

The OP of this thread cited the ridiculous, bogus SBT simulation done by Failure Analysis, where FMJ bullets were merely fired into cadaver wrists at reduced velocities. The bullets did not have to pass through ballistics gelatin before hitting the wrists, nor did they have to smash at least a few inches of rib bone before hitting the wrists, nor did they have to penetrate at least 1 inch into a gelatin block after exiting the wrists.

At least in the 1967 CBS SBT test, the bullets passed through 12 inches of gelatin before hitting cadaver wrists, but none of the bullets managed to penetrate the simulated thigh, and many of them never even exited the cadaver radius bone. Based on these facts, one of the expert forensic consultants for the CBS test, Dr. W. F. Enos, said the CBS test "disproved" the SBT and that the SBT was "highly improbable" (Mal Jay Hayman, Burying the Lead: The Media and the JFK Assassination, Trine Day LLC, 2019, pp. 214, 218).

Lattimer's SBT test actually did a decent job of duplicating CE 399's alleged journey, but Lattimer threw away the three bullets that struck two bones, and one of the other bullets was markedly deformed.

In the WC's SBT test, an FMJ bullet that was fired through a goat carcass and broke one rib emerged with more deformity than CE 399, even though the goat rib was smaller than Connally's fifth rib and even though it did not smash a cadaver wrist after breaking the rib. That bullet is shown in CE 853.

Other bullets from the WC's SBT test were merely fired into cotton wadding, and every one of them emerged with the same or greater deformation as CE 399.

In the 1992 All-American Communications (AATV) SBT test, two gelatin blocks and two sets of bones were used. The bullet that hit two bones emerged far more deformed than CE 399, and it never penetrated the second gelatin block.

Tom Graves:

--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on August 27, 2025, 04:35:35 PM ---I find it revealing that lone-gunman theorists simply cannot face the fact that even in SBT tests where the FMJ bullets did most of the same damage attributed to CE 399, the bullets emerged more deformed than CE 399, in addition to the fact that no one has yet found a forensic case where a bullet performed the same feat alleged for CE 399 and emerged with minimal deformity.

The OP of this thread cited the ridiculous, bogus SBT simulation done by Failure Analysis, where FMJ bullets were merely fired into cadaver wrists at reduced velocities. The bullets did not have to pass through ballistics gelatin before hitting the wrists, nor did they have to smash at least a few inches of rib bone before hitting the wrists, nor did they have to penetrate at least 1 inch into a gelatin block after exiting the wrists.

At least in the 1967 CBS SBT test, the bullets passed through 12 inches of gelatin before hitting cadaver wrists, but none of the bullets managed to penetrate the simulated thigh, and many of them never even exited the cadaver radius bone. Based on these facts, one of the expert forensic consultants for the CBS test, Dr. W. F. Enos, said the CBS test "disproved" the SBT and that the SBT was "highly improbable" (Mal Jay Hayman, Burying the Lead: The Media and the JFK Assassination, Trine Day LLC, 2019, pp. 214, 218).

Lattimer's SBT test actually did a decent job of duplicating CE 399's alleged journey, but Lattimer threw away the three bullets that struck two bones, and one of the other bullets was markedly deformed.

In the WC's SBT test, an FMJ bullet that was fired through a goat carcass and broke one rib emerged with more deformity than CE 399, even though the goat rib was smaller than Connally's fifth rib and even though it did not smash a cadaver wrist after breaking the rib. That bullet is shown in CE 853.

Other bullets from the WC's SBT test were merely fired into cotton wadding, and every one of them emerged with the same or greater deformation as CE 399.

In the 1992 All-American Communications (AATV) SBT test, two gelatin blocks and two sets of bones were used. The bullet that hit two bones emerged far more deformed than CE 399, and it never penetrated the second gelatin block.

--- End quote ---

Griffith,

What's the probability that your beloved testers were able to perfectly reenact CE-399's trajectory, angles of incidence, and velocity, etc., not to mention what it did after it exited JFK's throat and started tumbling (which we know from the Haags experiments viewable in "Cold Case JFK" and the oblong entry wound in JBC's back) so as to be able to recreate perfectly the way it was tumbling and twirling when it side-swiped JBC's radial bone?

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ERXm9OwuE

Michael T. Griffith:

--- Quote from: Tom Graves on August 28, 2025, 12:39:23 AM ---Griffith,

What's the probability that your beloved testers were able to perfectly reenact CE-399's trajectory, angles of incidence, and velocity, etc., not to mention what it did after it exited JFK's throat and started tumbling (which we know from the Haags experiments viewable in "Cold Case JFK" and the oblong entry wound in JBC's back) so as to be able to recreate perfectly the way it was tumbling and twirling when it side-swiped JBC's radial bone?
--- End quote ---

This is sheer comedy. Let me repeat the fact that in the WC's SBT test, bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged as deformed or more deformed than CE 399. Plus, are you aware that Connally's back wound showed no indication that it was made by a tumbling bullet, that the mortician said the back wound was about 6 inches below the throat wound, that the rear clothing holes put the back wound well below the throat wound, and that the most sophisticated SBT trajectory analysis ever done proves the SBT is impossible?

This is not to mention the fact that we know that no bullet exited the throat wound because there was no hole in the tie and because the front shirt slits had no fabric missing from them and had no metallic traces around, in addition to the fact that Dr. Carrico and one of the Parkland nurses confirmed that the nurses made the shirt slits.

Are you ever going to face the fact that there was no hole in the tie? Even if we assume a bullet exited the shirt slits, there is no way that bullet could have magically weaved around the body of the tie to nick the left side of the tie knot. Again, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick near the left edge of the tie knot. This fact alone destroys the SBT.

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