Really good documentary on the "three casket entries" at Bethesda

[Royell Storing]

 So are you Now claiming the JFK Body was Never placed in a shipping casket? Even though you just claimed this was common practice? Let me guess. You're favorite game is "Twister"?

[Tom Graves]

So are you Now claiming the JFK Body was Never placed in a shipping casket? Even though you just claimed this was common practice? Let me guess. You're (sic) favorite game is "Twister"?

Storing,

It seems to me that your only game is "Hallelujah! I'm a zombified-by-KGB-disinformation 'useful idiot' for life!"

[Lance Payette]

So are you Now claiming the JFK Body was Never placed in a shipping casket? Even though you just claimed this was common practice? Let me guess. You're favorite game is "Twister"?

Please, tell me you're not really this dense. Weisberg determined it was SOP to send a shipping casket to every military autopsy. The obvious reason is that the remains would typically be sent to a funeral home after the autopsy. Most bodies do not arrive for military autopsies in $3000 (in 1963 dollars) ceremonial caskets from Dallas - duh. Most would not be suitable for placement in a burial casket until after the embalming. If the shipping casket is not needed - OK, no big deal. The shipping casket was delivered by MDW to Bethesda because the expectation was that JFK's body would go to Gawler's for embalming. At the "last minute" (Hagan), a decision was made that the embalming would be at Bethesda. The shipping casket was not needed, no big deal. Several people saw the shipping casket and assumed, wrongly, that this was the arrival of JFK's body. No big deal, except in Conspiracy World.

Perhaps return to your Huge Gates nonsense because you're not even good at Whack-a-Mole on this thread.

I will close here by asking folks to look at Horne's discussion of the Gawler "First Call Sheet" beginning at roughly 18:20 of the video. Horne notes the "metal shipping casket" statement on the Call Sheet and explains that Hagan confirmed this term meant a cheap, basic transit casket. WOW!

Horne DOESN'T tell us that Hagan, in two separate interviews, told Horne that he had never seen the casket, had only been told JFK arrived in a "metal" casket, had merely assumed it was a transit casket, and had no idea JFK had actually arrived in a "ceremonial" bronze casket costing $3000 ($31,546 today).

In short, the "First Call Sheet" is irrelevant to the shipping casket issue and Horne is a fundamentally dishonest con artist.

Alas, "fundamentally dishonest con artist" describes many of the most high-profile conspiracy theorists. Whatever their agenda may be, historical truth is not part of it.

[Charles Collins]

Please, tell me you're not really this dense. Weisberg determined it was SOP to send a shipping casket to every military autopsy. The obvious reason is that the remains would typically be sent to a funeral home after the autopsy. Most bodies do not arrive for military autopsies in $3000 (in 1963 dollars) ceremonial caskets from Dallas - duh. Most would not be suitable for placement in a burial casket until after the embalming. If the shipping casket is not needed - OK, no big deal. The shipping casket was delivered by MDW to Bethesda because the expectation was that JFK's body would go to Gawler's for embalming. At the "last minute" (Hagan), a decision was made that the embalming would be at Bethesda. The shipping casket was not needed, no big deal. Several people saw the shipping casket and assumed, wrongly, that this was the arrival of JFK's body. No big deal, except in Conspiracy World.

Perhaps return to your Huge Gates nonsense because you're not even good at Whack-a-Mole on this thread.

I will close here by asking folks to look at Horne's discussion of the Gawler "First Call Sheet" beginning at roughly 18:20 of the video. Horne notes the "metal shipping casket" statement on the Call Sheet and explains that Hagan confirmed this term meant a cheap, basic transit casket. WOW!

Horne DOESN'T tell us that Hagan, in two separate interviews, told Horne that he had never seen the casket, had only been told JFK arrived in a "metal" casket, had merely assumed it was a transit casket, and had no idea JFK had actually arrived in a "ceremonial" bronze casket costing $3000 ($31,546 today).

In short, the "First Call Sheet" is irrelevant to the shipping casket issue and Horne is a fundamentally dishonest con artist.

Alas, "fundamentally dishonest con artist" describes many of the most high-profile conspiracy theorists. Whatever their agenda may be, historical truth is not part of it.

Distortion by omission is prevalent in most of the ideas presented by the CT community. The root of the issue is that people will usually believe what they want to believe (ie: that there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK). The people who want to believe in a conspiracy will almost always just overlook the omissions even after the omissions are pointed out to them. Maybe one day when they decide they want some answers (instead of more and more questions) they will change their attitudes and begin to seek reality instead of more and more intrigue.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Distortion by omission is prevalent in most of the ideas presented by the CT community. The root of the issue is that people will usually believe what they want to believe (ie: that there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK). The people who want to believe in a conspiracy will almost always just overlook the omissions even after the omissions are pointed out to them. Maybe one day when they decide they want some answers (instead of more and more questions) they will change their attitudes and begin to seek reality instead of more and more intrigue.

Yep, that summarizes the main problem dealing with them, with any conspiracist (this, 9/11, whatever). We see it with this casket claim, with the claims of alteration of the Zapruder film, with the Tippit shooting, the autopsy, the Mexico City visit (my favorite).

The problem is that it takes 30 seconds to make a conspiracy claim and then 30 minutes to fix it, to add the omissions. As we see here. It's hard to "unring" the conspiracy bell especially with the JFK assassination and particularly during moments when a sort of conspiracy fever is prevalent (e.g., during the Watergate/Vietnam period or now). We just saw this again with the news reports about Oswald in New Orleans. The corrections are always chasing the errors.

And yes, I know there are conspiracies and I know governments lie. Could conspiracists please stop with these responses?

[Royell Storing]

Yep, that summarizes the main problem dealing with them, with any conspiracist (this, 9/11, whatever). We see it with this casket claim, with the claims of alteration of the Zapruder film, with the Tippit shooting, the autopsy, the Mexico City visit (my favorite).

The problem is that it takes 30 seconds to make a conspiracy claim and then 30 minutes to fix it. As we see here. It's hard to "unring" the conspiracy bell especially with the JFK assassination and particularly during moments when a sort of conspiracy fever is prevalent (e.g., during the Watergate/Vietnam period or now). We just saw this again with the news reports about Oswald in New Orleans. The corrections are always chasing the errors.

And yes, I know there are conspiracies and I know governments lie. Could conspiracists please stop with these responses?

    Whatever you think about multiple caskets, don't you believe that these NEW Photos of the ambulance/pickup truck/morgue loading dock area are valuable in this unsolved murder case? These images are clear enough to attach names to faces which also permits Time Stamping. Those photos alone are worth watching this Horne presentation. It also proves that there is NEW JFK Assassination Evidence out there. It would be extremely valuable to Know what photographer took those photos. This is a currently unknown Eyewitness as to who/what was going on in the Bethesda morgue loading dock area.

[Lance Payette]

    Whatever you think about multiple caskets, don't you believe that these NEW Photos of the ambulance/pickup truck/morgue loading dock area are valuable in this unsolved murder case? These images are clear enough to attach names to faces which also permits Time Stamping. Those photos alone are worth watching this Horne presentation. It also proves that there is NEW JFK Assassination Evidence out there. It would be extremely valuable to Know what photographer took those photos. This is a currently unknown Eyewitness as to who/what was going on in the Bethesda morgue loading dock area.

They aren't new evidence. They were new to Horne. He says that he then discovered them all online. The videos showing the black hearse were located at ABC News Video Source. The two still photos were located online and Horne says he acquired a license to use them; whoever owns the rights presumably knows the provenance of the photos.

The two still photos simply depict the Navy ambulance that delivered JFK's body in the Dallas casket, together with the Navy pickup in which the casket team followed the ambulance. Nice photos, but nothing new. The officer saluting in one photo and walking toward the camera in the other is Sorell Schwartz, who had appeared in a YouTube video before Horne located him. His recollections are inconvenient for Horne, so Horne trashes him.

Horne establishes (correctly, I believe) that the black hearse videos do not depict the hearse that delivered the shipping casket at 6:35 PM. They depict the Gawler's hearse that delivered the new burial casket much later in the evening (and departed with the damaged Dallas casket). The videos are thus of marginal relevance to anything.

Why Horne says he found these materials "electrifying" is a mystery to me, although perhaps as a gung-ho CTer he's more easily electrified than I am.

Horne says we will find no photos or videos of the black hearse delivering the shipping casket because this was an ultra-secret clandestine event. I say we will find no photos or videos because MDW's routine delivery of an empty shipping casket was a Big Nothing, a Non-Event.

[Lance Payette]

Because I am a Serious and Dedicated Researcher, I have located and herewith offer the following:

Sorell Schwartz, the officer in the two ambulance photos, is not some doofus. He is a PhD and Professor Emeritus of Pharmacology at Georgetown University Medical Center, Senior Pharmacology Advisor at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and has had advisory appointments at the National Library of Medicine, the FDA, the EPA, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, the FTC, the U.S. House of Representatives, OSHA, the Department of Defense, the FBI and WHO.

Golly!

The first video is Professor Schwartz discussing medical matters that my fellow elderly researchers might find semi-interesting. If nothing else, it may help you assess whether Schwartz seems like the fumbling fool who can't accurately remember anything whom Horse describes. (He must be 85-86 in these videos.)

The second video is more pertinent. Beginning at 18:54, Schwartz discusses the evening of 11-22-63. It's pretty interesting. He describes Lifton's theories as "a lot of BS," which may explain Horne's efforts to trash him.