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Author Topic: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans  (Read 8211 times)

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2025, 01:33:22 AM »
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Seems like it would be a lot easier to swing , with just one hand, a 27” length paper bag package containing light weight curtain rods than it would be to swing a 35” length  paper bag package containing 8lbs of disassembled rifle stock and barrel.

That was rather a risky thing to do, carrying
8lbs of rifle parts in a flimsy paper bag , with just one hand at the top. Oswald loses  his grip and the bag tears apart or slides thru the unsecured folded over flap?

And why is that upper flap not taped securely, but just folded over? Is Oswald crazy, stupid , or what?

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2025, 01:33:22 AM »


Online Tom Graves

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2025, 01:56:02 AM »
Seems like it would be a lot easier to swing , with just one hand, a 27” length paper bag package containing light weight curtain rods than it would be to swing a 35” length  paper bag package containing 8lbs of disassembled rifle stock and barrel.

That was rather a risky thing to do, carrying
8lbs of rifle parts in a flimsy paper bag , with just one hand at the top. Oswald loses  his grip and the bag tears apart or slides thru the unsecured folded over flap?

And why is that upper flap not taped securely, but just folded over? Is Oswald crazy, stupid , or what?

You're right, of course, Neon, so we're forced to conclude that Buell and his sister lied about how long the package was and how Oswald had carried it.

Why in the world would they do that?

One possible answer is that Buell conspired with Oswald to kill JFK.

Another possible answer is that, despite what Oswald told him about "curtain rods," Buell suspected that he might have a rifle in that package and was duping him into transporting it to their seven-story place of work a few hours before JFK and Jackie were scheduled to pass by it.

In this scenario, after the assassination Buell must have felt culpable for not having reported his suspicions to someone in authority at the TSBD.

I mean . . . wouldn't you?

Bottom line: Buell may have decided to lie about how long he thought the package was in order to make him look less naive and/or less culpable!!!

« Last Edit: May 11, 2025, 11:23:21 AM by Tom Graves »

Offline Lance Payette

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2025, 07:29:22 PM »
Someone who is truly and honestly neutral on what happened, is agnostic on what occurred that day in Dallas and has no set opinion on whether it was Oswald alone or a cast of thousands, would, on the bag question (and others), challenge every explanation as to what it contained and not just one. Viz., that it contained a rifle, that it contained curtain rods, that it contained a lunch, or that it contained something else. Each theory would be challenged.

But we don't see that here (or with the other questions). We have this challenge against the "bag had the rifle" theory but not challenges of the curtain rod or lunch or "something else" theory. This from the person who says he has no theory as to what happened (and isn't interested, he adds, in any one of them anyway). The intellectual inconsistency is obvious to everyone.

I thought that's what I was trying to do with this entire thread?

OK, the package contained curtain rods: Answer the questions I posed and explain how that makes sense.

OK, it contained a lunch: Answer the questions I posed and explain how that makes sense.

OK, it contained something other than a rifle, curtain rods or a lunch: Answer the questions I posed and explain how that makes sense.

Then we'll assess the plausibility of each explanation and see if any reaches the same level of plausibility as the disassembled rifle.

We will reach some level of conviction that the package contained whatever the most plausible explanation suggests it contained.

That's how reasoning works, except in conspiracy world.

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2025, 07:29:22 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2025, 08:13:01 PM »
Who do you think you're fooling?  What you are doing is the usual LN shift-the-burden game:  prove that it was something else, or disassembled Carcano wins by default.
It is a reasonable inference that Oswald brought the gun to work that morning:

A. Oswald's gun was found at the murder scene.
B. Oswald's gun was last seen in Ruth Paine's garage wrapped in a blanket made with brown and green fibres. 
C. Oswald was in Ruth Paine's garage the night before the murder 
D. Oswald took a long package wrapped in brown paper to work on the day of the murder. 
E.  Oswald told Buell Frazier that it contained curtain rods for his room. 
F. Oswald's room did not need curtains. 
G. No curtain rods were found at the TSBD and Oswald did not leave the TSBD carrying a long package. 
H. A long paper package similar to the package described by Buell Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle was found in the murder scene and it was found to have Oswald's palm print on it. It also contained fibres that were indistinguishable from fibres from the blanket in which the rifle had been wrapped.

Any juror could easily draw the inference that Oswald took his gun to work on the morning of 22Nov63.

Offline Lance Payette

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2025, 08:59:31 PM »
I will offer my chain of reasoning:

1. Oswald requested to go to the Paine home on Thursday, which was unusual, because he needed his rifle for use on Friday.

2. When Frazier asked why, Oswald answered curtain rods because he knew he would have a long, stiff, possibly metallic-sounding package the next morning.

3. Oswald said nothing to Marina or Ruth about curtain rods because (1) he didn't want to be burdened with curtain rods as well as his rifle and (2) he wanted to be alone in the garage on his own terms and not with either woman observing him.

4. Ruth and Marina said that Oswald had said nothing about curtain rods; there was no reason for them to lie, and it would have been odd for Oswald not to offer this explanation if it were true.

5. Marina said the disassembled rifle was wrapped in a blanket in the Paine garage. There was no reason for her to lie, especially since she thought it was still there.

6. Michael Paine testified about the contents of the blanket, his testimony being a near-perfect match for the disassembled rifle and his estimate of the length being 37".

7. The curtain rod story makes little sense for a frugal character like Oswald, who was merely renting his tiny room. The only curtain rods in the Paine garage belonged to Ruth, so Oswald would either have had to steal them or lower himself to asking Ruth if he could have them; this is unlikely for the proud Oswald, especially since curtain rods cost only $1 or less.

8. Frazier told Randle about the curtain rod story on Thursday evening, just as Randle said.

9. Randle saw Oswald carrying the package in one hand with the other end nearly touching the ground and observed that the package seemed bulky and heavy, which would fit the disassembled rifle better than curtain rods or a lunch; there was no reason for her to lie about this.

10. Oswald told Frazier the package contained curtain rods and that he had not brought his lunch; there was no reason for Frazier to lie about this.

11. At the TSBD, Oswald walked rapidly ahead of Frazier with the package close against his side, just as Frazier said, because he wanted the package to be as inconspicuous as possible.

12. Even if the contents of the package were discovered, Oswald would have had the convenient explanation that other rifles had recently been brought into the building and he just wanted to show his; the project was not as risky as it might seem.

13. A rifle that was traceable to Oswald and that had been stored in the Paine garage was found on the sixth floor where Oswald had been working.

14. Oswald was not observed with anything but a Coke by Mrs. Reid and was not observed with anything in his hands on the bus, by Whaley or by Earlene Roberts.

15. No curtain rods were found in the TSBD or Oswald's room.

16. Oswald denied the curtain rod story during interrogation, making Frazier and Randle appear to be liars because (1) he knew there were no curtain rods and (2) a package of curtain rods would have sounded suspiciously like a disassembled rifle; better to just deny the whole thing. If he actually had brought curtain rods, this would have been an excellent alibi.

17. Oswald said he had brought a lunch, again making Frazier appear to be a liar; when Holmes asked if it had possibly been brought in a large grocery sack, Oswald quickly agreed with this highly improbable suggestion because he knew he had been carrying a large package.

18. The likelihood of someone carrying a sandwich and apple in a large grocery sack is close to nil; Oswald offered no explanation for where the sack might be.

Based on the above, the conclusion that Oswald was carrying the disassembled rifle seems to have a very high degree of plausibility. Everything fits together nicely.

The flies in the ointment are the length estimates of Frazier and Randle.

1. Randle originally estimated the length at three feet.
2. The discrepancy arose when Frazier and Randle were questioned at the car by Odum.
          a. Did Frazier, who had initially been a suspect, perhaps have a motive for suggesting the package seemed too small to hold a rifle?
          b. Did Randle perhaps have a motive not to make her brother look like a fool, whereupon she settled on a length of 27"?
3. At the Warren Commission, Randle was pretty well locked into her prior story since it had involved recreating the package, but at the WC the length did increase to 28.5."
4. Although Randle impressively stuck by her estimate, we can reasonably question how much attention either she or Frazier would have paid under the circumstances (i.e., the importance of Oswald and the package being completely unknown before the assassination). This applies as well to Frazier's observation of the way Oswald supposedly carried the package into the TSBD; he was some 50 feet ahead of Frazier, and Frazier acknowledged at the mock trial that the end might have been protruding.

Hence, I see Frazier's and Randle's estimates as being problematical but explainable and not sufficient to dent the high plausibility of the disassembled rifle explanation.

I would invite those who disagree to take us through a similar chain of reasoning for curtain rods, a sandwich and an apple, or whatever else the package might have held.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2025, 09:05:05 PM by Lance Payette »

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2025, 08:59:31 PM »


Offline Lance Payette

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2025, 09:48:13 PM »
Seems like it would be a lot easier to swing , with just one hand, a 27” length paper bag package containing light weight curtain rods than it would be to swing a 35” length  paper bag package containing 8lbs of disassembled rifle stock and barrel.

That was rather a risky thing to do, carrying
8lbs of rifle parts in a flimsy paper bag , with just one hand at the top. Oswald loses  his grip and the bag tears apart or slides thru the unsecured folded over flap?

And why is that upper flap not taped securely, but just folded over? Is Oswald crazy, stupid , or what?

The rifle would have only been broken down into two parts, wouldn't it? (See photo)

Presumably wrapping paper used at a book warehouse would not be flimsy. The 12/2/63 report on Randle emphasizes a "heavy grade of paper."

At no time did Randle say Oswald "swung" the package. She described it as "bulky" and "heavy" and said the wider end (butt of the rifle) was at the bottom.

We don't know exactly what he took from the TSBD, how he transported it to the Paine home, or how much time he had in the Paine garage or exactly what he did. My guess would be that he basically created the bag at the TSBD but left the top open so he could slide the disassembled rifle into it.


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2025, 11:20:12 PM »
This is just my opinion, but I don’t believe that there is conclusive evidence that the rifle was disassembled in order to take it into the TSBD. I can think of a few ways to conceal the short section of the end of the muzzle of a fully assembled rifle that would have been sticking out of the open end of the homemade bag. A small lunch sack would have covered it very easily. And even if it stuck out exposed, there are ways to carry it so that the end of the muzzle would be hidden inside his jacket sleeve or jacket front. This would also eliminate the time needed to reassemble it and also eliminate potential rattling sounds that might attract unwanted attention to the package.  But, either way, I think that the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that LHO snuck the rifle into the TSBD the morning of 11/22/63. Just my two cents worth.

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2025, 12:26:43 AM »
This is just my opinion, but I don’t believe that there is conclusive evidence that the rifle was disassembled in order to take it into the TSBD. I can think of a few ways to conceal the short section of the end of the muzzle of a fully assembled rifle that would have been sticking out of the open end of the homemade bag. A small lunch sack would have covered it very easily. And even if it stuck out exposed, there are ways to carry it so that the end of the muzzle would be hidden inside his jacket sleeve or jacket front. This would also eliminate the time needed to reassemble it and also eliminate potential rattling sounds that might attract unwanted attention to the package.  But, either way, I think that the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that LHO snuck the rifle into the TSBD the morning of 11/22/63. Just my two cents worth.

You make some very good points there Charles, the difference between the disassembled rifle and the actual length is only a few inches and the bag was made of paper. The reasoning for the rifle being broken down was to fit the bag but what if the bag was actually long enough and Oswald's bag had both ends sealed and Oswald  simply cut off one end to access the rifle? The end of the bag seems to be squared off so I don't know how practical my theory is but hey it's food for thought?
And your observation re the "potential rattling sounds" is interesting and indeed if the rifle was disassembled then the separate parts would need to be secured tightly and maybe this extra wrapping is what prevented Cadigan from discovering a distinct connection between the rifle and scratches or dents in the bag?

JohnM

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Re: Walk me through this, curtain rod fans
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2025, 12:26:43 AM »